Ask Yourself "Am I Stupid?" Frontcounter BC

[tomcycle]

I have reached an age where I know there are many things I can not physically do anymore and I am coming to terms with this. So if I can't ride the way a use to I might as well use what's left of my brain power for good. I consider myself of average all round intelligence, comfortable with most software and on occasion pretty wicked on a keyboard.

If you have been following some of the other threads regarding the Newbee Ride, you already are aware we are having a few issues with government bureaucracy. Anyhow several of the DSBC rides have in the past been over the 100 mark for participants. We have been told that if this is the case we must follow the Land Use Policy for Adventure Tourism. So reluctantly I agree to start the process for next year (because I am told that our submission will be at the bottom of a very big pile.

So I have a couple of hours free in the afternoon and think to myself "how hard can this be?"

I would like any of you to do me a favour and try to get started on getting Permission for an Adventure Tourism event (thats what I am told the Newbee ride is) I will give you a head start by putting in the link where you start

http://www.frontcounterbc.ca/

I was told to go to the Frontcounterbc site and start an Natural Resource Application
Use the Newbee Ride as an example
150 participants
non profit club


Im also told all the information I need is there. Go ahead click on http://www.frontcounterbc.ca/ and see how far into the process you make it..........go ahead I will wait

Go ahead and post here with your success
In all honesty I had to phone frontcounter for some help at this point. Starting to feel my age.

The nice girl on the phone did everything except call me stupid
I was told this was a very long and involved process
I was told that I had a lot of reading to do to understand this process
I was told that if you did not do this on a regular basis the chances of success were greatly diminished
I was told there are companies that specialise in filling out these kind of applications and if I was not prepared to follow up on all the links she provided I probably should hire a professional.

In other words she was of absolutely no help

Funny I was under the impression that civil servants where there to help?

This process is ridiculously complex for non profit clubs volunteer to undertake

Like I said, give it a try then post some suggestions to make this process easier

 

[TW_rider]

I think the best suggestion was to the effect of: "don't PLAN anything"...just have everyone show up simultaneously and spontaneously.
It wouldn't be any different than the amount of boats at Tunkwa Lake on opening day...or hunters at Pink Mountain at the start of moose season.

What could they do....arrest EVERYBODY?

I can appreciate the amount of desk/paper work involved when it comes to placating the Bureaucratic monster...as a "civil servant", I am witness to some of the most mind-numbing stupidity in Government when it comes to satisfying P & P (policy and procedures).

Most of it makes no sense to the rank and file...but I am assured (daily) that these steps need to be taken because of insert-reason-here. After 26 years, I'm still not convinced.

What exactly is the issue...is it the use of the Staging area, or the fact that we would be riding on past and present logging roads? Does this/these issue(s) exist at the Loose Screw? Routledge run?

 

[tomcycle]

The issue here is, the government discovered that it had to deal with groups using crown land. They came up with this land use permission policy

Any number in a group over 15 participants requires permission (up to 100 for motorised)
http://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/fa...use/land-water-use/crown-land/permissions.pdf

Any group of motorised over 100 requires a much more rigorous process with the Land Use Permission Policy Adventure Tourism
this requires a 250 non refundable deposit (for us not for profits) whether you get permission or not.

This affects many different events specifically off road events as the policy is being interpreted at the moment

routledge
Spring newbee
Fall newbee
Loose Screw
The entire PN series amature off road races (20+)
GVMC fun ride at Chipmunk
Blue Mtn root of all evil
any work parties over 15 (on crown land not under section 56 or 57) just about all of them

Shall we skirt the law? That would be up to you, but I have my name listed in more than one place with government and don't think I would want to be associated with this as I am sure there are lots of other out there with the same feeling.

I am pretty sure everyone here at DSBC is confused, but as a group I don't think we can condone non compliance when it comes right down to it

I am told this is the new world we now live in and we had better step into line.

Sorry to much of my opinion, what we need is solid advice

 

[TW_rider]

The way I'm reading all this stuff is that it applies to ORGANIZED events, otherwise we all fall under:

6.2.3.1 Transitory Activities on Crown Land
Any person may use Crown land (including aquatic Crown land) for transitory activities such as hiking, rock climbing, boating, water skiing, swimming, snow skiing,filming/photography, bird watching, horse-back riding, caving, and snowmobiling, as well as motorcycling, biking and use of all terrain vehicles and other similar activities.

The "problems" seem to appear as soon as an event is organized.
If a ride was unsanctioned/unsponsored/unaffiliated with any identified group...then what you have is a group of riders, whose only transgression is using all the parking spaces.
Is it far-fetched to believe that dozens of riders would coincidentally show up at the same place...on a sunny weekend...to ride?
Not at all.

Is the government enforcing these Land Use rules at Stave Lake on any weekend?

Does the government have the resources to enforce ANY of their rules? The amount of garbage and burnt out vehicles on the backroads in the CRV alone, suggests that they don't.

(playing Devil's advocate here....)

The one thing I have noticed about "Government regulations" (being in the thick of it), is that even when you are compliant...the policy makers will assume that it's because they've made it too easy, and will keep adding more layers and more nonsense until it becomes unattainable...job security and all that!

 

[tomcycle]

The one thing I have noticed about "Government regulations" (being in the thick of it), is that even when you are compliant...the policy makers will assume that it's because they've made it too easy, and will keep adding more layers and more nonsense until it becomes unattainable...job security and all that!

Very good observation, never occurred to me until you said it

 

[TW_rider]

The thing they don't seem to understand is that if you make a compliance process too onerous, eventually NOBODY will bother and then it becomes an enforcement issue, to which they don't have the manpower...CLASSIC government pretzel-logic.

If the "fine" for non-compliance is (for instance) $1000, and you have 100 participants...charge them each $10 (as a "donation") to participate in the ride. If you get busted, you have the money to cover the fine...if you don't get caught, it goes into Club coffers...would probably be a lot less hassle, and no paperwork to fill out.

 

[04klr]

I went there and read and re-read heaps of it. Then sent off an email. Everything written that I came across was concerned at some point with the exchange of money where, here there is none. One reference to groups over 15,, buut follow the process and it gets back to policies where money is made by the adventure tourism "operator".
Which dsbc is not. So wedding parties must stay below 15 people, or family reunions where aunt Gladis has to stay home because she was number 16? doesnt make sense and has not or will ever be policed.
Here's a coupla snippits from the site.

6.2.3.5Organized Events on Crown Land In addition to the requirements set out in Section 6.2.1 and 6.2.2, on the conditions set out in Appendix 3, any Non-Commercial Group may use Crown land (including aquatic Crown land) to undertake an Organized Event. In addition to the activities listed in Transitory Activities Section 6.2.3.1, Crown land may also be used for family functions such as wedding receptions and family reunions.

"Adventure tourism, also known as nature-based tourism or backcountry commercial recreation, involves operators offering services on provincial Crown land to persons for compensation or reward. Services being offered to guests may include:"

I do think that a happenstance weekend that an unusually large group happened upon one area at the same time is at best an anomaly, and individually had no intent in exceeding 15 people, it just happened, whooda thunk it. Fancy seeing you here. No money paid or received.

 

[farmerger]

Quote from the Permissions policy to use Crown Land Section 1;" This policy does not apply to:  Recreation Sites and Trails- use of designated recreation/camping sites andtrails and their maintenance, rehabilitation or development which are authorizedunder the Recreation Sites and Trails section within FLNR. Please consult thewebsite at: http://www.sitesandtrailsbc.ca/ for more information;" So if the Newbee ride is entirely on public roads and trails within the Tamihi Creek Recreation Area (I admit I've never been so I might be way off here), no permission is required.

For the LooseScrew, the staging is on private land, not crown. The fees are for dinner and shirt not for the activity. The activity is on crown land but its not guided. The sticky part is that if it was under 100 participants the LS meets all the requirements for not needing authorization for land use. But the "Permission" to use crown land (and to not need authorization to do so) isn't specific on whether those 101 or more users stay together as a group or are split into smaller groups. When you divide the LS up into A,B,C and C+ loops, each user group has well under 100 participants.

By the way if some gov spy is reading this, you should do some research into trail user vs. erosion; its not too hard to find research that shows horses cause the greatest erosion not wheeled vehicles. Yet the equine groups can have 200 participants. Just more proof that this has nothing to do with protecting crown land, and everything with "...job security and all that!"

 

[TW_rider]

How much do the horse riders have to pay for a party of 200?

The issue here is, the government discovered that it had to deal with groups using crown land.

...Or is it just another cash grab aimed at one demographic?

They came up with this land use permission policy

Which seems to contradict their OTHER policy that states:

Any person may use Crown land (including aquatic Crown land) for transitory activities such as hiking, rock climbing, boating, water skiing, swimming, snow skiing,filming/photography, bird watching, horse-back riding, caving, and snowmobiling, as well as motorcycling, biking and use of all terrain vehicles and other similar activities.

I think that 04KLR may be onto something when he suggests that this Land Use Permission policy is for those aiming to profit from the use of Crown Land...nothing bugs a Ministry more than suspecting someone is making a buck on their portfolio.

 

[tomcycle]

Quote from the Permissions policy to use Crown Land Section 1;" This policy does not apply to:  Recreation Sites and Trails- use of designated recreation/camping sites andtrails and their maintenance, rehabilitation or development which are authorizedunder the Recreation Sites and Trails section within FLNR. Please consult thewebsite at: http://www.sitesandtrailsbc.ca/ for more information;" So if the Newbee ride is entirely on public roads and trails within the Tamihi Creek Recreation Area (I admit I've never been so I might be way off here), no permission is required.

The Trails at Tamihi are not under a Section 56 with means RSTBC has no authority, all trails are on crown land. The Staging area is under a Section 56

For the LooseScrew, the staging is on private land, not crown. The fees are for dinner and shirt not for the activity. The activity is on crown land but its not guided. The sticky part is that if it was under 100 participants the LS meets all the requirements for not needing authorization for land use. But the "Permission" to use crown land (and to not need authorization to do so) isn't specific on whether those 101 or more users stay together as a group or are split into smaller groups. When you divide the LS up into A,B,C and C+ loops, each user group has well under 100 participants.

This has been brought up and discussed but even amongst ourselves seems a little sketchy at best We are trying to follow the rules as we understand them.

By the way if some gov spy is reading this, you should do some research into trail user vs. erosion; its not too hard to find research that shows horses cause the greatest erosion not wheeled vehicles. Yet the equine groups can have 200 participants. Just more proof that this has nothing to do with protecting crown land, and everything with "...job security and all that!

I totally agree, however have you ever seen how much horse people spend! Very active politically dirt bikers not so much

see highlighted underlined text

 

[tomcycle]

How much do the horse riders have to pay for a party of 200?

has anyone ever seen 200 horses in one place before?

 

[cactusreid]

Nicely done on the research end everyone! It looks like we (you researchers specificially) as a group are getting this tangled web of sections and sub sections figured out. Thanks to all involved!

 

[farmerger]

Tom, then why is Tamihi listed on the RSTBC web site including the trails? Something sounds wacked here (more so than usual with gov bs!) I don't know what Section 56 is, got a link for more reading? Ultimately its ALL on crown land!

As for my point on the LS, consider this, the permission states (and I'm going from memory here now) its good for 72 hour activity. That means 100 motorized users over the three days is 300 total passes. Surely they can't argue that 150 for one day is worse/greater than that?

 

[TW_rider]

Surely they can't argue that 150 for one day is worse/greater than that?

They can and they will argue any point they want...and stop calling me Shirley.

 

[farmerger]

They can and they will argue any point they want...and stop calling me Shirley.

Bwahahaha!!!!

 

[tomcycle]

Tom, then why is Tamihi listed on the RSTBC web site including the trails? Something sounds wacked here (more so than usual with gov bs!) I don't know what Section 56 is, got a link for more reading? Ultimately its ALL on crown land!

As for my point on the LS, consider this, the permission states (and I'm going from memory here now) its good for 72 hour activity. That means 100 motorized users over the three days is 300 total passes. Surely they can't argue that 150 for one day is worse/greater than that?

Only the Tamihi Staging Area and the campgrounds are under a Section 56. (remember a section 56 gives RSTBC the power to manage) Section 56 legally establishes a trail

Here is a link to Section 56 and 57. please remember there may be "policies" that I don't know about

http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/consol21/consol21/00_02069_01#part5_division3

As far as the LS is concerned, the event does not use any trials that are under a Section 56 (as far as I know)

Still waiting for some direction from BCORMA as far as the Land Use Permission.