Bcorma kicked off orv jag

joker650

New member
Yes, a replacement is required for Peter. Who do we know who is active in the motorcycle community, has tons of knowledge on these subjects, understands bikes and riders, is well spoken and vocal, has experience dealing with the various government bodies, and is not afraid to say what they think about these issues? ? ?

YOU....:ted:
Sorry...but you asked :cool:
 

tomcycle

Past President DSBC 2004 -2018
Staff member
Its been interesting the past 24 hours, everyone wants to speak off the record????

We have been heard, please take the time to review the quoted text, you asked for it.

There has been a response from Vera Vukelich she is the manager responsible. I can say that I have spoken to Vera on two occasions, that was some time ago, I found her to be professional and pretty strait forward. I posted about my contact with her on this thread http://www.dualsportbc.com/forums/showthread.php?12997-Bill-13-Off-Road-Vehicle-Act-for-BC post #179 if you are interested.

If you have been following this little drama you might find this an interesting addition

First a little timeline as it gets confusing

December 2 2014
For many months we have been hounding BCORMA to communicate with the riders they represent on the ORVJAG. They finally started some dialog and before you know it a "call to arms" was posted on the BCORMA site


December 3 2014 many DSBC members and others take up the call and start contacting their MLAs and other government officials

Some get direct calls back and others get emails. Seems a nerve was hit

December 4 2014
Myself and several others receive this email, I don't know how many or why me?


Vukelich, Vera FLNR:EX
Attachments Dec 4 2014 8:07 AM

to me
Thank you for recent emails regarding the approach to information sharing at the ORV Joint Advisory Group. Although I have spoken with a few of you already, I thought this additional information may be helpful.

ORV JAG was established in 2010 to provide a forum for ministry staff to consult with stakeholder associations regarding proposed off road vehicle laws. Proposed legislation and regulations are subject to Cabinet confidentiality and so any consultation drafts of proposed laws and discussions would need to be confidential- this is why ORV JAG members signed a confidentiality agreement.

Each provincial stakeholder association has two representatives on ORV JAG and, in the case of BCORMA, Ken McLelland is the primary representative. I also have a standing offer to stakeholder associations that I am available to provide updates to their board and answer questions. For individual stakeholder association members, the ORV Management Framework contains my contact information with email and phone number so that I may be contacted directly as well – here’s the weblink: http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/mof/orv/

I have also copied you on the email below as it may provide some additional context regarding the approach to information sharing at ORV JAG.

Please let me know if you have any further questions or concerns; my direct phone number is 250 356-7040.

Thank you again for taking the time to write.

Sincerely,
Vera

There is also an email attached to above email regarding the most recent ORVJAG telecon, which was Dec 2 2014 which is also the same day that Peter S posted his removal from the ORVJAG on the BCORMA site http://bcorma.ca/node/1531



Subject: Dec 2nd ORV JAG call re ORV Mgt Framework ( http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/mof/orv/)
When: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 10:00 AM-12:00 PM (UTC-08:00) Pacific Time (US & Canada).
Where: Conf call


ORV JAG members,

The purpose of this call is to touch base now that voluntary ORV registration has begun and to address any other emerging issues.

I am suggesting the following draft agenda for your consideration:
Voluntary registration – update and Q&As (10:00 -11:00 am)
Approach to sharing Information outside of ORV JAG (11:00 -11:30 am)
Emerging Issues and next steps (11:30 to 12:00 pm)

In terms of agenda item #2 re the approach to sharing information about the exploratory policy being discussed at ORV JAG, I would like to suggest we revisit a proposal I suggested to JAG members a while ago -- please refer to the attached 2012 document titled “Example of a Stakeholder Interest Paper”:
As you know, ORV JAG is bound by a confidentiality agreement because it represents exploratory policy development discussions between key stakeholders and ministry staff (myself) to support government decision makers -- this means policy development discussions at ORV JAG do not represent government decisions (this is why I can only inform the public about what is on the ministry ORV Website). Rather, government policy decisions about proposed ORV laws are made by the Minister responsible for the ORV Act in collaboration with members of the Minister-MLA ORV Committee. Decisions about proposed regulations are made solely by Cabinet (which is subject to Cabinet Confidentiality).

To help illustrate what I mean, the following is a draft summary of what I heard from stakeholders re interests at ORV JAG regarding proposed policy for ORV safety laws which is not confidential because it represents stakeholder interests (note: please ensure there are no errors or omissions in this summary since it’s been a while since we reviewed – we can discuss on Dec 2rd to confirm content):

Enhanced ORV safety measures will result in fewer deaths or serious injuries to operators and passengers of ORVs used or operated on Crown land; specifically,
Helmets: all operators and passengers of ORVs must wear a safety-approved helmet (e.g. Snell).
Seatbelts: operators and passengers of side-by-side ORVs (e.g. argo, rhino) must wear a seatbelt, where installed by the manufacturer.
Lights: all ORVs must use lights for low visibility conditions. Specifically, where installed by the manufacturer, head-lights, tail-lights and break/stop-lights must be illuminated, between ½ hour after sunset to ½ hour before sunrise, and at any other time when there is insufficient daylight atmospheric conditions.
The majority of ORVs have lights already installed by the manufacturer but if not, as is the case for off-road motorcycles, they will be permitted to affix temporary bike lights to the vehicle (white light in front and red light in rear).
Youth Safety: additional safety rules to better protect youth riders include:
Mandatory adult supervision of youth under 16 years of age.
The age of the supervising adult be 19 years of age.
Youth aged 14-15 years are exempt from adult supervision if they have written permission from their parent/guardian and have the training for the type of ORV they are riding.
Youth must only use or operate ORVs that are the appropriate size vehicle for their age and weight which is based on the manufacturer’s recommendation and rider fit.
For example, rider-fit for an ATV or snowmobile means a vehicle of a size that permits the Youth to operate the steering and braking controls while touching the balls of both feet on the running board while sitting astride on the seat.
In terms of youth as passengers:
Youth must not carry a passenger/s when using or operating an ORV.
A youth must only ride as a passenger of a person using or operating an ORV only when the manufacturer has recommended the vehicle is capable of transporting youth passengers.
Exemptions to safety regulations continue to apply to ORVs used at organized sporting/competitive events.
Training continues to be recommended for all ORV operators.

If you cannot attend the call on Dec 2nd, we can touch base by phone one-on-one afterwards.

Cheers,
Vera

And finally a attachment of a document that was circulated for the ORVJAG to assist in preparing an acceptable informational release



EXAMPLE OF A STAKEHOLDER INTEREST PAPER......


Off Road Vehicle Management Framework


- Interests of Stakeholder Association XYZ -


The purpose of this paper is to provide directors/members of Stakeholder Association XYZ
with background information about the ORV Management Framework initiative and to
provide a summary of the interests being tabled/championed by your association’s
representative at ORV JAG discussions with government staff.

Background


In November 2009, government announced the Off-Road Vehicle (ORV) Management
Framework to encourage safe and responsible ORV riding and support a growing industry
that has the opportunity to deliver lasting socioeconomic benefits to rural communities.
in January 2010, a Minister-MLA ORV Committee was established to provide policy
direction to staff and to oversee the implementation of the ORV framework. Honourable
members currently include: Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations
(Chair); Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Innovation; Minister of Justice; Minister of
Environment; Minister of Transportation and MLAs for Kamloops-South Thompson,
Kootenay East and Cariboo-Chilcotin.
In June 2010, an ORV Joint Advisory Group was established by government to provide
provincial stakeholder associations with a forum to discuss their key interests and issues
related to the ORV Management Framework – it is facilitated by FLNROs manager
responsible for ORVs. JAG members are subject to a confidentiality agreement and have
the option of either participating as a JAG member with the mandate to represent their
association or as an association member with subject/sector area expertise.


JAG adopts a round-table approach, with each stakeholder member having an equal voice
-- consensus is welcome but not required. Any staff-level discussions or document tabled
at JAG is not necessarily representative of the final position which may be taken in respect
of a matter and is subject to change. In general, policy decisions about the ORV
framework are made by the Minister-MLA ORV Committee.

Currently, ORV JAG members include: Association of BC Snowmobile Clubs, Automotive
Retailers Association (Powersport Division), Backcountry Lodges of BC, BC Cattlemen’s
Association, BC Commercial Snowmobile Operators Association, BC Nature, BC Off-Road
Motorcycle Association, BC Snowmobile Federation, BC Wildlife Federation, Guide
Outfitters Association of BC, HeliCat Canada, Insurance Corporation of BC, Private Forest
Landowners Association, Quad Rider’s Association of BC (ATV BC), Outdoor Recreation
Council, Trails BC, Grasslands Conservation Council of BC, Wilderness Tourism
Association and the Union of BC Municipalities (UBCM).


March 12, 2012 Draft


EXAMPLE OF A STAKEHOLDER INTEREST PAPER......


A separate Local Government ORV Working Group was established by UBCM (chaired by
UBCMs ORV JAG lead representative) and is comprised of staff and elected officials from
municipalities and regional districts across the province.
In July 2011, the public was informed that the Province is also considering legislative
changes to the Motor Vehicle (All Terrain) Act based on feedback from stakeholder
associations. For example, modernize the ineffective ORV legislation, ensure there are
better enforcement tools and the ability to make different rules about different types of
ORVs and situations. As a result, the ORV Management Framework is targeted to be fully
implemented by approximately fall 2012.

Key elements of the new ORV framework include:
 An expanded definition of ORVs:
o ORVs include ride-astride snowmobiles, off-highway motorcycles, all-terrain
vehicles and side-by-side utility terrain vehicles (such as argos, rhinos and dune
buggies). ORVs may have wheels, tracks and/or skiis.
farming, ranching, forestry, oil/gas, mining, sport/recreation and tourism.
o ORVs are used for work, leisure and commuting purposes. Sectors include:

 One-time, user-pay vehicle registration, with a clearly visible number plate, for all
ORVs operated on Crown land. Benefits include:
o Assists compliance/enforcements efforts to identify irresponsible ORV riders.
o Helps officers track stolen ORVs.
o Aids in search and rescue efforts to find lost or injured ORV operators.
o Ensures continuity of ownership is maintained via a removable plate.

 Enhanced ORV safety measures should result in fewer deaths or serious injuries:
o Helmets.
o Lights for low visibility conditions.
o Improved safety for youth includes adult supervision, appropriate size vehicle for
o For utility terrain vehicles, seatbelts are required to be worn.

 Better connecting communities and trail systems:
o Designating safe and more convenient highway crossings for ORVs.
o Snowmobile and snow vehicle operators may cross a highway at a traffic light or
age/weight and reduced speed limits.
stop sign without the requirement for a police-issued operation permit; all other
Motor Vehicle Act requirements continue to apply. A police-issued operation
permit also continues to be available at non-designated locations.

 Better protecting the environment:

o Spark arrestors will help prevent the risk of forest fires and help reduce the noise
disturbance to wildlife, communities and other recreationists.


March 12, 2012 Draft


EXAMPLE OF A STAKEHOLDER INTEREST PAPER......


 A provincial compliance and enforcement strategy for ORVs is being developed; a
key element is to promote voluntary compliance through public education.
The following website contains additional information: http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/mof/orv/

Association XYZ’s Interests

Based on internal expertise within the association and a scan if what is being done in other
jurisdictions, association XYZ has been tabling the following details about the proposed
new ORV laws for consideration by government staff at ORV JAG:

Helmets
 <excerpt from province/territory/state A>
Lights
 <excerpt from province/territory/state B and E>
Passengers
 <excerpt from province/territory/state L and J>
Youth Safety
 <excerpt from province/territory/state H and K>
Spark Arrestors and Noise
 <excerpt from province/territory/state C and F>
Highway Crossings
 <excerpt from province/territory/state G and S>
Scope of Registration
 < insert interests about registration applying on Crown and private lands>
Other Matters
 < excerpt from province/territory/state X, Y, Z >
If you have any questions, suggestions or comments about the above interests, please
contact your association representatives on ORV JAG:
 Name and contact information of representatives on JAG

March 12, 2012 Draft
 

Cultusking

New member
I just love to read government (and lawyer) shit, just a whole lot of nothing, more nothing, a little bit of something that does not really interest a lot of us and some more nothing.
No explanations, no reasons, no definitive answers and then before we know it they have slipped in some legislation that we may or may not agree with. All the while kicking off "OUR" representative (Peter?) who may or may not have leaked information we as riders would like to know.
The deliberate act of making things difficult and providing zero transparency is what makes us "users" in any respect, distrusting of the way in which these government groups come up with said legislation.
Ahh the basic stuff- everyone should wear helmets, children should be supervised, spark arrestors etc is a given and to most of us common sense.
The real issues that have been legislated that affect us has now once again been done without our input and done behind closed doors.
All I can say is WOW
 
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offworlder

Moderator
"ORV JAG was established in 2010 to provide a forum for ministry staff to consult with stakeholder associations regarding proposed off road vehicle laws."

How then can we be consulted with when we're not allowed in said "forum", our representative is muzzled, and then turfed for providing details after the fact ?!? And the formerly "proposed" laws are now to be "imposed" !
 

tomcycle

Past President DSBC 2004 -2018
Staff member
Should we be concerned as BCORMA has gone silent again?

We must give the government credit where credit is due, Vera has, and continues to have, her contact information on the governments website (left pane)
http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/mof/orv/
and invites any group or person to contact her.

Should we be apprehensive with BCORMAs call for action? While we answered that call, the government has responded (to be expected). BCORMAs response was to revise their original "release" and has distributed/posted on the BCORMA site, an email release entitled "Guide to meeting and sharing your passion for ORV sports with your MLA" (which makes no mention of BCORMAs Executive Directors removal from the ORVJAG)

I have requested an official response and guidance from BCORMA yesterday and have not had anything back at this time

With BCORMAs lack of information and response,regarding the removal of their Executive Director from the ORVJAG, is there more to this than meets the eye?

One good thing that has come from this is we did find out we can get the governments attention if we stick together. It is very important that all off road motorised users, dirt bikers, quaders, snowmobilers, sxs and 4x4, support each other, as a combined group we have a clear voice but independently we can be ignored.

TT
 

North

Active member
So who can we trust? It seems like Vera is the only stand up person. Is she a Miss, Mrs or Ms.

Anyways, I have received no reply back from my MLA or her Office. Reading up on her, she is about Women's rights. I did tell her that I ride with my Daughter.:tup: I hope that helps the cause.
 
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tomcycle

Past President DSBC 2004 -2018
Staff member
Where are the other Off Road Motorised groups with this removal of the BCORMA Executive Director?

Are the other Off Road Motorised groups supporting BCORMAs Executives Directors, call to action, to contact our MLAs that is posted publicly on Facebook? (but not on the BCORMA site?)

1. Association of BC Snowmobile Clubs, http://abcsnow.ca/
2. BC Snowmobile Federation, http://bcsf.org/
3. BC Off-Road Motorcycle Association, http://www.bcorma.ca/
4. Quad Rider’s Association of BC (ATVBC), http://www.atvbc.ca/




I am just wondering??????
 

Cultusking

New member
Maybe as DSBC seems the only interest group for dirt riders involved (that i know of) in the Gov process we need to appoint a spokesperson to go to bat for us?
DSBC has grown into more than just a forum for us type's to go riding, we need to consider this
 

cheesetroll

New member
Good Day, I'm a newbie here, I just received posts regarding the Orv Act. and being railroaded. I don't care too much for being railroaded. I went into the BC Statutes and checked out the Act. and regs'. Is there a problem with the Act and regulations? Or is the removal of BCORMA from the joint advisory committee the main problem?

Dave Verdonk
Mission BC.
 

tomcycle

Past President DSBC 2004 -2018
Staff member
Maybe as DSBC seems the only interest group for dirt riders involved (that i know of) in the Gov process we need to appoint a spokesperson to go to bat for us?
DSBC has grown into more than just a forum for us type's to go riding, we need to consider this

This has been discussed loosely amongst a few DSBC members, and for good reason as a few months back it seemed that BCORMA had thrown DSBC "under the bus". This was on another Government Advisory Group. As BCORMA did not get what it wanted, DSBC let the issue die.

My advice to DSBC is to support BCORMA, but my resolve is not what it use to be.
 

tomcycle

Past President DSBC 2004 -2018
Staff member
Good Day, I'm a newbie here, I just received posts regarding the Orv Act. and being railroaded. I don't care too much for being railroaded. I went into the BC Statutes and checked out the Act. and regs'. Is there a problem with the Act and regulations? Or is the removal of BCORMA from the joint advisory committee the main problem?

Dave Verdonk
Mission BC.

Just to clarify, BCORMA had two representatives on the ORVJAG, BCORMAs executive director got dismissed for a perceived breach of confidentiality.

I can not get verification, so this is just my educated guess with the information I can get

BCORMA through its Executive Director announced on December 3 2014 that he was removed from the Off Road Vehicle Joint Advisory Group (ORVJAG) for posting some details of the inner workings of the ORVJAG on the BCORMA site.

He asked that all ORV users contact their MLA, here is a quote directly from the BCORMA website.
We are not allowed to make public any item of discussion that was ever discussed in the JAG, including all the issues that BCORMA worked on on behalf of dirt bikers. I have been expelled from the Off-Road Vehicle Joint Advisory Group without recourse due to these removed bullet points.


The continued clamp-down on public discussion and dissenting opinion within the JAG will only be changed through riders demanding a more open and publicly transparent process. Contact your MLA and raise these issues along with decals as proper vehicle identification vs metal plates chosen by the Government

A. This all got out of control when the governments position on metal plates appeared to be non negotiable.

B. Then BCORMAs Executive Director got removed from the ORVJAG

Unfortunately BCORMA has not communicated anything further (as of Dec 5 2012) on (B) the Executive Directors removal from the ORVJAG, However they continue to request that we contact our MLA and advise him on our concerns (A) (if any) regarding the present act and the apparent stand the government has take on the requirement for metal plates.

I hope that helps

Tom
 

tomcycle

Past President DSBC 2004 -2018
Staff member
So who can we trust? It seems like Vera is the only stand up person. Is she a Miss, Mrs or Ms.

Anyways, I have received no reply back from my MLA or her Office. Reading up on her, she is about Women's rights. I did tell her that I ride with my Daughter.:tup: I hope that helps the cause.

Rick, at this time I am not sure where to turn for the "real goods" regarding the ORV Act?

BCORMA is either, Afraid, Can't or Won't communicate with the riders they represent.

This is too bad as this will probably be the only time to get this right.

TT
 

North

Active member
Well, I am sure you right about this being the time to get it right.

My MLA has a Constituency office not to far away. I will give them a call. And I just did.

The Office is open Monday to Thursday, so I will pop down next week on the Bike and have a chat.
 
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skidmark43

Administrator / BFF in the blue jacket
I just love to read government (and lawyer) shit, just a whole lot of nothing, more nothing, a little bit of something that does not really interest a lot of us and some more nothing.
No explanations, no reasons, no definitive answers and then before we know it they have slipped in some legislation that we may or may not agree with. All the while kicking off "OUR" representative (Peter?) who may or may not have leaked information we as riders would like to know.
The deliberate act of making things difficult and providing zero transparency is what makes us "users" in any respect, distrusting of the way in which these government groups come up with said legislation.
Ahh the basic stuff- everyone should wear helmets, children should be supervised, spark arrestors etc is a given and to most of us common sense.
The real issues that have been legislated that affect us has now once again been done without our input and done behind closed doors.
All I can say is WOW

The email & excerpts you're referring to are indeed 'dry'. Not much meat on the bone or anything to get excited about. I don't agree that this is 'lawyer shit' so much as the typical dissemination of info from bureaucrats to the public.

I would clarify the process that our governments follow:
  1. Government recognizes an issue that will inevitably make its way into policy or legislation.
  2. The Ministers staff determine the direction / choices they with to propose, and convene a Joint Advisory Group of recognized interest groups, stakeholders & lobbyists. Invitation-only & completely secretive - only the Government staff can disseminate information from / about these meetings.
  3. Staff steer the (confidential) discussions; possibly seeking input, buy-in and consensus... possibly just ticking the 'met with stakeholders' box.
  4. Staff (confidentially) shares info / make recomendations to their bosses (the Assistant Minister) who in turn advises & shapes policy recomendations with the (elected) Minister.
  5. Cabinet (confidentially) then bounces it around, and eventually the issue dies or makes its way into legislation. The result may or may not look exactly like the original vision of the bureaucrat regardless of the JAG input... or something completely different divised by cabinet at the end of the process.

WOW indeed!

Not a very 'open' process, but that's how it works. I would agree that it appears 'deliberately difficult & opaque'... but I've been involved with the frustration of herding cats before so see 'their' side a little bit.

So in this case "dirtbikers" were identified as one of the stakeholders that should be on the Joint Advisory Group, and BCORMA is the only provincial federation known to represent our divers group. So BCORMA was invited to participate and put forth 2 individual representative. The time commitment was onerous; frustrating meetings sometimes, and nothing could be discussed or disseminated back to memberships, and all for 'no pay'. What a shitty situation for Ken & Peter to be in - but better to be in the room than out - so they participated & (presumably) did their best to understand the issues and put forth dirtbikers views on the subject / get us 'the best deal.'

So Rees - I agree that the process is difficult, lacks transparency and justifies my (our) distrust in new policy / legislation. I have no idea how to fix it...

Your comment on the "basic stuff / common sense" surprisingly is controversial too. I've been discouraged at the resistance / arguments over helmets, supervising kids, spark arresters, illumination in the dark, liability insurance, tin plates etc.

Point of fact: the history books will read that we were consulted in an open environment and the legislation was a result of our input.

WOW
 

skidmark43

Administrator / BFF in the blue jacket
Rick, at this time I am not sure where to turn for the "real goods" regarding the ORV Act?

BCORMA is either, Afraid, Can't or Won't communicate with the riders they represent.

This is too bad as this will probably be the only time to get this right.

TT

"Stop punching them"

BCORMA has very little money; I believe that their Executive Director (Peter) only works 2 days per week. ...and Ken is a volunteer with a day job like so many of us. Yours is probably 1 of 20-50 requests from across the province - so give them a week to respond.

I suspect that the fight to get Peter back on the JAG is pointless (The manager (?) will most certainly support the employee's (Vera's) decision)... so the focus is for Ken to stay on the JAG and find a replacement (who's willing to sit silently through all the shite described above.)

"the only time to get the ORV Act right"? Nope - Elvis has left the building. But I hope you'll prove me wrong and I'll support you & your efforts.

The Natural Resource Roads Act is actually (IMHO) a bigger issue, likely to come to a head in 2016/17. Let's get our shit together, learn the issues, support BCORMA & build relationships / dialogue with our MLAs before it's too late.
 

J Martin

New member
I got this response from our Local MLA:


The ministry provided the following information.

· Dirt bike enthusiasts (through the BC Offroad Motorcycle Association or BCORMA) have had an active voice in the creation of the ORV Act through the ORV Joint Advisory Group, a Provincially-led stakeholder group representing 18 different organizations.

· BCORMA continues to be actively represented on the ORV Joint Advisory Group through their President, Ken McLelland.

· The Province has invited the President of BCORMA to appoint another representative.


Please let me know if this provides the clarification that you need.

Sincerely,

Cheryl Ashlie
Constituency Assistant to
MLA, Dr. Doug Bing
Maple Ridge-Pitt Meadows
604 465-9299
FAX 604 465-9294
 

tomcycle

Past President DSBC 2004 -2018
Staff member
"Stop punching them"

BCORMA has very little money; I believe that their Executive Director (Peter) only works 2 days per week. ...and Ken is a volunteer with a day job like so many of us. Yours is probably 1 of 20-50 requests from across the province - so give them a week to respond.

I suspect that the fight to get Peter back on the JAG is pointless (The manager (?) will most certainly support the employee's (Vera's) decision)... so the focus is for Ken to stay on the JAG and find a replacement (who's willing to sit silently through all the shite described above.)

"the only time to get the ORV Act right"? Nope - Elvis has left the building. But I hope you'll prove me wrong and I'll support you & your efforts.

The Natural Resource Roads Act is actually (IMHO) a bigger issue, likely to come to a head in 2016/17. Let's get our shit together, learn the issues, support BCORMA & build relationships / dialogue with our MLAs before it's too late.


You might be right Mark? Ken is a Volunteer, but he did know what he was getting into.

Getting Peter back onto the JAG, Pointless? You're probably right there too, as there seems to be some other underlying issues we don't know about

The Act is written, now its just the details ie metal plates or decals

NRRA, my understanding, I can be corrected, BCORMA is not on that advisory group.
 
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