Bcorma kicked off orv jag

offworlder

Moderator
Ahhh, the ol "shut up and bend over" tactic....
As Tom stated - this may be the only time to get this right, but as Mark stated - Elvis has left the building.
So (while better than saying nothing) is writing/calling our MLAs even enough ? While we may have garnered some attention, we need to act in a persistent, visible and collective way. What other immediate actions can we as a collective take ?

In the interim, how's about we start a poll (ie: who's got off their arse and contacted their MLA re transparency, decals vs plates, etc...) to make visible the level of participation (or lack thereof) even amongst ourselves ?
 

kpmacker

New member
Yet. We're trying to get a foot in the door there too. Mark is right, NRRA is/will be a big deal. And yes, I knew what I was getting into re ORV JAG. Just wasn't expecting the ration of s*** doled out on a steady basis from a very few of our own membership over something my hands (and lips) are pretty much tied on. Lots of time, $$ out of pocket, which I'm all fine with, btw, but basically being called a secretive coward guilty of some sort of conspiracy to screw riders over is a little over, actually, way over the top. Little wonder it's hard to find volunteers.
 
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North

Active member
I've been discouraged at the resistance / arguments over helmets, supervising kids, spark arresters, illumination in the dark, liability insurance, tin plates etc.

I don't get this as well, stuff like that does not help the cause, IMHO. Reading comments like kids hurting themselves on a metal plate, etc. I would be more worried about a hot engine or exhaust, or an unsupervised kid crashing, just for examples.

Not having a fully paid representative is certainly a detriment. Making bricks without straw.

I don't know anything about working with Governments on things like this. But with us not being major players, I am worried about the outcome. Having said that, I am more then willing to follow the Leadership on this Site on what to do.
 
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tomcycle

Past President DSBC 2004 -2018
Staff member
Yet. We're trying to get a foot in the door there too. Mark is right, NRRA is/will be a big deal. And yes, I knew what I was getting into re ORV JAG. Just wasn't expecting the ration of s*** doled out on a steady basis from a very few of our own membership over something my hands (and lips) are pretty much tied on. Lots of time, $$ out of pocket, which I'm all fine with, btw, but basically being called a secretive coward guilty of some sort of conspiracy to screw riders over is a little over, actually, way over the top. Little wonder it's hard to find volunteers.


Thanks for joining in the discussion here on DSBC, we don't hear enough from BCORMA directly here on the DSBC site. (other than my little rants)

I am only guessing here, but seeing I have doled out a few loads or S*** out on BCORMA, you might be directing this to myself or someone here at DSBC? No one, and I mean NO-ONE, knows better than I, how much time and money volunteers put into our sport and I thank all of you who do volunteer.:tup::tup:

HOWEVER.......I do take exception to your unfounded claim that member(s) on this site has publicly or privately called yourself or anyone at BCORMA a "secretive coward guilty of some sort of conspiracy to screw riders" A comment like this would have been brought to someones attention here and I expect would have been dealt with, usually with a retraction if it is found not to be true. I might be eating my shorts on this one but, like other BS'ers on this site I will give you the opportunity to substantiate your comment.
 

North

Active member
Yet. We're trying to get a foot in the door there too. Mark is right, NRRA is/will be a big deal. And yes, I knew what I was getting into re ORV JAG. Just wasn't expecting the ration of s*** doled out on a steady basis from a very few of our own membership over something my hands (and lips) are pretty much tied on. Lots of time, $$ out of pocket, which I'm all fine with, btw, but basically being called a secretive coward guilty of some sort of conspiracy to screw riders over is a little over, actually, way over the top. Little wonder it's hard to find volunteers.

Dear Sir,

I would to thank-you for all the time, money and effort you have put forth on behalf of all of us.

Sincerely,

Rick
 

Cultusking

New member
Yes. As a user group I myself would be prepared to support a knowledgeable person within our ranks to be a spokesperson for the issues at hand.
Tom, yes the man behind not only keeping, maintaining and growing our "sport" by countless hours both online and on the trails, but one with a first hand insight into the dramas coming to light from the government would be the perfect person to go to bat for us, however nothing in life is free and who the hell wants the hassle.
Also its unfortunate there is insufficient funds to "Pay" a representative for our greater group (dirt riders in general) however what does one do when we are in a small bucket of water with 200 other screaming people that cant get out.
Not only this but trails to build and funding to get for the next generation of riders
 

kaos

New member
Thinking outside the box here why not lobby to use some of the 10 million dollar ntc trail fund money for paid representation of a legally trained professional on matters of off road recreation rather than expect a part time volunteer enthusiast member of BCORMA to take care of the future of dirt biking in BC
 

tomcycle

Past President DSBC 2004 -2018
Staff member
Thinking outside the box here why not lobby to use some of the 10 million dollar ntc trail fund money for paid representation of a legally trained professional on matters of off road recreation rather than expect a part time volunteer enthusiast member of BCORMA to take care of the future of dirt biking in BC

K


the executive director of BCORMA is already a paid position, last I heard something like 70K plus expenses.


The entire board of directors is all part time volunteers, ie President, VP etc


NTC funding has very strict restrictions, what you propose would not come near to the criteria of NTC funding. Something I have learned about counting on any kind of government funding is, YOU CAN'T COUNT ON GOVERNMENT FUNDING. Besides who wants our representatives to be beholding to the government?


What do I think you ask? (oh you didn't ask, I will tell you anyhow)

BCORMA has some money (not much) but is putting all (well most) its eggs in one basket, in the form of wages for an executive director. This is not a bad thing but we all expect that BCORMA does everything for every off road rider, right? We all have real jobs out here and we all know we cant be everything to everybody, we all get support from someone or somewhere else and those support people get paid too. As a former insider now looking in from the outside, the executive director is not getting the support he needs, he pretty much works on his own.

What about the rest of the BCORMA BoD's, they could do the support work you ask? Thats unlikely as they are the executive directors boss, they already volunteer their time to sit on the BCORMA Board. Whats more is that all those who sit on the BCORMA board come from their own club or association where they volunteer their time on that board and probable are volunteering on other projects. There is no way that we could expect our own representatives we send to BCORMA to do even more volunteer work.

BCORMA is political in nature, they have to deal with politicians and government bureaucrats. You can't get much more political than that? All I ever hear from off road riders it "I don't like the politics, so I don't support xyz association/club" BCORMA has, had and will continue to have a very difficult uphill battle. Presently BCORMA is operating more like a club than the association they claim to be. BCORMA has spread itself too thin by believing they are the only association that can do anything for off road riders. BCORMA has alienated many of its member clubs over the past few years, they need to learn why and what to do about it, the get all the clubs back into the fold. They might have to eat a little crow (I eat lots of it, you get use to the taste)

What would I do if I were king? Oh right I was king for a couple of years.........Its not a one man job, it requires a dedicated group of people with a clear vision and a road map. COMMUNICATION do I need to say more?

T
 

Farp

Active member
From post # 38 in this thread:

BCORMA has very little money; I believe that their Executive Director (Peter) only works 2 days per week. ...and Ken is a volunteer with a day job like so many of us. Yours is probably 1 of 20-50 requests from across the province - so give them a week to respond.

And from post # 49

the executive director of BCORMA is already a paid position, last I heard something like 70K plus expenses.

Is this right? BCORMA pays Peter Sprague $70/yr, plus expenses, and he only works 2 days/wk???


John
 

tomcycle

Past President DSBC 2004 -2018
Staff member
Peter sprague makes 70 k a year ? Was he not the member kicked off jag?

To the best of my knowledge Yes and Yes

In 2012 he made 66K and 2013 68K plus expenses, Only the BCORMA board can answer how much the ED get paid for 2014
 

kpmacker

New member
A. Peter does not make anything like "$70k plus expenses a year" for working 2 days a week

B. What Peter gets paid is Peter and BCORMA BOD's business, and is not for dissemination on this forum

C. The BCORMA BOD has full confidence in the Executive Director.

Tom, you really have some nerve spreading this hyperbolic crap which you know, or ought to know, is not true. I've tried to keep this on a professional level by communicating with you privately on some of these issues, and had come to believe you had developed an understanding of JAG CA restrictions, and the inability to discuss JAG matters in public. Apparently I wasted my time. You know good and well the restrictions we have operated under for years on this JAG. Do we agree with them? No. Do we live with them? We don't have much choice if there is to be any kind of a voice for off-road motorcyclists on JAG. Peter has just been removed from JAG for a perceived breach of the CA, very open to interpretation. Perhaps you would prefer I just shoot from the lip and have us booted off JAG altogether? Wouldn't non-motorized love that? Then we could be totally screwed over, without so much as a meaningful whimper of protest. Have we thrown off-road motorcyclists and DSBC in particular "under the bus", as you accused us of earlier in this thread? Not a chance. One phone call to Vera or any other member of JAG would confirm that that we have participated fully and vocally in the process to protect and advance the interests of motorcyclists. But that would involve some work, and fact-finding, rather the much-easier and apparently preferred method of spreading sleazy innuendo, snide rumour-mongering and full-on fiction as to our true intentions. As with all politics, and with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, it is much easier to poke holes in, and tear down, somebody else's dedicated and well-intentioned work, than to offer a constructive and workable solution of your own. Tom, you have done some great work over the years for, and on behalf of, off-road and dual-sport motorcycling, particularly and most recently with the Tamahi staging area and trail network, which I congratulate you for. Don't let negativity be your legacy, remembered mostly for taking cheap and unfounded potshots at others working on the behalf of all riders. Rather, be remembered for the good you have done. There is plenty of that. Don't let it be overshadowed by the negative.
 

kpmacker

New member
BTW, sincerely doubt I'll be participating in any more of your trolling expeditions. Want to stir the pot for sport? Go nuts. Fewer and fewer people will pay attention.
 

tomcycle

Past President DSBC 2004 -2018
Staff member
Ken,

Its unfortunate that you feel I am spreading "hyperbolic crap", Im not even sure what that means, I get the crap part and that should be good enough.

Its interesting on the BCORMA site you are "
[FONT=Myriad Pro, Myriad, Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]demanding a more open and publicly transparent process" from the Government. [/FONT][FONT=Myriad Pro, Myriad, Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yet BCORMA, which is supported by our money, has no intention of telling their supporters how they are spending the money, "business of the BCORMA BoDs" you say? I disagree

I stand behind my comment that the BCORMA ED got paid i
[/FONT]n 2012 66K and 2013 68K plus expenses. I do not know how many days a week he works or how much he is getting paid at this time.



Just for the record you have used the following words and phrases when communicating to DSBC in this thread.

hyperbolic crap
spreading sleazy innuendo
Trolling
snide rumour-mongering
cheap and unfounded potshots
negativity be your legacy
taking cheap
s*** doled out
secretive coward
conspiracy to screw riders

And how is this to help BCORMAs cause? thou doth protest too much
You are not adding anything positive to the discussion, perhaps you are reading too much into my comments?

You are right, I am going to have to agree with you, perhaps you should not participate anymore, or at least until you calm down and stop attacking anyone that has a less than complimentary comment, and provide some clear and truthful answers.

You know here is another opportunity to use one of my dads quotes he used on me (on more than one occasion)
If you've got nothing good to say........................................

T
 

LordEndo

Member
Staff member
BTW, sincerely doubt I'll be participating in any more of your trolling expeditions. Want to stir the pot for sport? Go nuts. Fewer and fewer people will pay attention.

Actually Tom has done nothing but continually state that we should support BCORMA.....over and over again in this thread. Why is Mr Sprague's remuneration such a secret? Isn't there enough gag orders going on already? As DSBC we support BCORMA, to my knowledge, with something like 200 trail passes each year, probably in a lot of other ways as well no? Certainly many of supported your call to arms to speak out about Peter being removed from the JAG. Now you're ripping on one of our guys? For answering our questions?

Doesn't look very good on you kpmaker..... We're asking questions and we're not getting answers. If you want to rip on Tom....pickup the phone, have another discussion, prove him wrong and let him eat crow on the forum. Your executive director was canned from the JAG - a number of us went public in a number of ways and new information keeps coming out that makes me for one question if I should have even gotten involved. Remember, I support BCORMA to represent me and my group - it's a choice where I spend my money. Tom keeps us abreast of what BCORMA's activities are - we deserve more than a pat on the head and being told to go lie down.
 

North

Active member
What we need is for everything to be transparent. This should apply to both the JAG and BCORMA. This would stop any rumors and speculation dead in their tracks. Let the light of day shine in where you can.
Fighting amongst ourselves will be our undoing. We have to stand together. We do not always have to agree, but let's be respectful to one another.

I know Tom and of all the work he done for the sport that is my great passion. Attacking him here does us all no good.
 
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I agree that Transparency is needed. Fighting on this issue is directly due to lack of information. Currently all that we have to go by is a small smattering of information that is let out on a seemingly need to know basis. From what i have seen ya Peter is paid how much I am not 100% sure. When Information is requested from BCORMA it seemingly only comes when angrily asked for and dripping with anger for asking. Tom and Myself have had several goes with BCORMA pertaining to what the hell is going on. I have been told that I should just trust them. Bottom line is this is a company/lobby group/non profit speaking for those who ride ORV so they should be answering to those who ride ORV. You want money from us open your books, be honest and get it together.
 

Cultusking

New member
As far as im aware BCORMA is a association not a company or a business. Therefore not only the finances but the minutes of all meetings are, or should be, legally public record. Including what happens between BCORMA and other organizations (ie government) regardless of being sworn to secrecy or whatever.
Transparency is very much needed, not only from BCORMA but also the government.
 
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