I officially need help :(

[Acorn]

Alright, so a little while ago I picked up a Cagiva Elefant, now I bought the bike with the mindset that I would need to work on it, because it's old, and I paid a price that reflected that. However, I've been trying to diagnose an electrical issue and I've worked it down to one of the gauges the previous owner installed is shorting out my charging system, and I just don't know where to go from here. Does anyone here know much about electrical? I've got a full wiring diagram, and electrical diagnostics chart, and what appears to be an incorrectly wired relay running said guage.

Why do I think it's a short? Well, when I turn the key off, the light from the gauge shuts off, then nearly instantly, gently glows back to life, that, and the relay is covered in acid, and that's not a good sign at all, could be wired wrong, could be dead? I don't know, what I do know is that my alternator isn't putting out because of it, and I think it's interfering with my voltage regulator somehow. Or, the regulator is just blown and I have wiring short that's completely unrelated but drains my battery anyway.

 

[DirtClunker]

If you don't find someone local, send me a PM. I will give you my email and then you can send a pic of your schematic. Then we can start in on diagnosis.

 

[Acorn]

can do! Going back to a shop is an option, but I'd really rather do this myself, It's not technically difficult, but it is time consuming.

 

[Mad Max]

I'm no electrical engineer but why not remove the cobbled in guage and wiring and just return it back to stock wiring?

 

[Acorn]

That's the next step is to track down exactly what the original wires are, and just remove it. It's just a voltage gauge anyway, would rather have oil pressure or a clock or something.

 

[Bora20]

Yes, remove the gauge would be a good step. But first you need to trace the wires back with your meter to see where they are going. Follow the same routine you are doing and see where the increasing voltage is coming from. That will give you a spot to start.

You could also do the same by pulling all the fuses and doing the same thing. Add them back in one at a time and that will narrow down the circuit that is your issue.

 

[Acorn]

The gauge actually has it's own dedicated fuse and power source, but disconnecting that only prevents that gauge from working, doesn't help anything sadly...

 

[Bora20]

Try the fuse method until you find which circuit is pulling the voltage.

 

[Acorn]

Okay! Big update, this time with photos. So following off this guide: https://www.dropbox.com/s/szonpwyk1ndcovs/electrical_fault_finding.pdf I've gotten to "You've got a permanent magnet alternator system. Let the engine idle, and connect the black multimeter-lead up to the battery(+). Connect the RED multimeter lead up to the RED (or WHITE/RED = Kawasaki) output wire of the RR. Leave the RR connected up to the bike. Check the reading on the meter. Leave the engine idling ! " When I do this I get -0.50 volts but when I flip the leads, I get .5 volts. Doesn't make sense to me to hook up black to +, BUT following those instructions, yeah, -0.5 is what I get, I'm curious, does that make sense?

this is the red wire I'm testing, and going off of the fact that this has 4 coloured wires.


I also found this not connected to anything, the orange to red wire here is the one that goes up into the regulator.



and for added bonus, here's the wiring job done for the gauge

 

[Bora20]

The reason that you get -0.5V and then 0.5V is because the motorcycle uses DC current. DC is Direct Current and the electron flow is in one direction resulting in a negative value when you put the leads on backwards. This is perfectly normal.

House wiring is AC, Alternating Current, in which electrons flow in both directions so all values appear positive.

Now back to the bike…that has some serious bodged wiring on it. I would clean it up if you can by removing what is not required. Use solder and heat shrink tubing to repair it properly, not crimp connectors.

At the end of all this, I am going to guess you have a bad regulator. Sorry I can't come help today, I had to install my uncles 5th wheel hitch this morning and service my bike for Moab this afternoon.

 

[Acorn]

The reason that you get -0.5V and then 0.5V is because the motorcycle uses DC current. DC is Direct Current and the electron flow is in one direction resulting in a negative value when you put the leads on backwards. This is perfectly normal.

House wiring is AC, Alternating Current, in which electrons flow in both directions so all values appear positive.

Now back to the bike…that has some serious bodged wiring on it. I would clean it up if you can by removing what is not required. Use solder and heat shrink tubing to repair it properly, not crimp connectors.

At the end of all this, I am going to guess you have a bad regulator. Sorry I can't come help today, I had to install my uncles 5th wheel hitch this morning and service my bike for Moab this afternoon.

No worries! I'm definitely leaning toward that as well, but cleaning up the wiring I can do for a lot less, but that's going to take me quite a bit of time sadly, though with my main school projects over all I have left is studying so that may happen yet (changing out the wires). Part of me wouldn't mind just removing all electrical systems and stripping it to bare minimum for lights... Maybe one day! Anyway, yeah, I'll probably replace the regulator rather soon.

Also, I'm aware it's DC, but one value is above 0.2 volts, one is below. I'm trying to figure out which one I should use are my voltage, because following the instructions gives me a negative voltage, which is either wrong, or really wrong.

Out of curiosity, I tested my stator as well, that tests fine with an ohms meter, so I'm positive it's either a bad connection, or a blown regulator. So I decided to test and see if battery power was getting to the bike on that signal wire, and it is... So I'm about 95% sure it's the regulator. Thoughts maybe? Or should I just straight up order one?


update: I just discovered the whole wiring job for that gauge is a total professional kit designed to bolt into the bike, I'm guessing that wherever it draws power just has a short, OR the corrosion inside the relay caused a short, since it has a direct connection to the battery.

 

[eagleguy]

I can't help with your electrical issues, being a machinist! But I do want to give you a ton of credit for how far you have gotten in only 2 days. I was given a compliment as a young man that I was persistent at my trouble shooting skills, and now I am giving you the same. Persistence is a good quality. cheers.

 

[Acorn]

thanks! Wait, is it that obvious that I'm under 25? Whatever, anyway! I've been looking online at regulators, and is there' really any practical difference between something like http://www.elefantadventurebikes.com/elefant_electrical_upgrade.html#starting (the electrex kit a little ways down) and something like this? http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Voltage-Regu...ccessories&hash=item1c3dbe8318&vxp=mtr&_uhb=1 All they are is diodes and simple electronics.... right?

 

[tomcycle]

I just was looking at this thread and looked at your charging system troubleshooting instructions. those instructions are for a 3 phase charging system. And what I see in the photos you supplied is a simple single phase charging system, like a dirt bike.

I dont know what your "electrical issue" is. but I will guess your either your battery draining (when not used) or is not charging? Two very different problems. Is your battery known for a fact to be good? I have seen so many guys think their charging system is failing when its a crappy battery. If the battery is of an unknown condition, check that first.

If it battery draining, its simple, you have something drawing power when the bike is not running. That should be easy to find

If your battery is not charging that may be slightly more difficult but still pretty easy. Start with making sure your voltage at your battery is well over 13.5 volts when at around 2500 rpm. If not then its a RR or Stator problem. If it is but your battery still does not charge, you have a battery or wiring problem.

I have never seen nor no of any volt meter that requires a relay, so I would spend some time and either remove that wiring or spend a little time and try a figure out the purpose of that relay was.

Don't start buying stuff without spending the time to make sure it is the problem

Your right about Regulator Rectifiers, they are not magic, they all work the same, just the input outputs are different and some have additional functions like warning lights outputs etc.

Good luck

Tom

 

[Acorn]

Sorry for the confusion Tomcycle, I actually touched on that in one of my earlier posts, I misinterpreted a wiring diagram, but you are correct, I have a permanent magnet generator, which I tested and it's all connected fine, meaning my regulator is shot.

As far as the relay goes, it's an aftermarket gauge designed and pre-built, so I'm confident it's wired correctly, however I'm also confident the corrosion was shorting out one of the leads since it's no longer being an issue. So! I'm currently trying to decide on a regulator to fix my issues, then I shall be out on the trails!

 

[DirtClunker]

OK, I cant hold my tongue anymore. Do what Tom says to determine if you *really* need to buy a regulator.

1. remove the suspect gauge from the system, so you do not get any misleading information
2. bike off, measure the voltage of the battery - ideal is 12.65VDC
3. bike on, 2500RPM, measure the voltage of the batter - should be 13.8V to 14.5VDC (*)

Report back on these last two numbers. From your measurements we will be able to tell if you need to screw with the reg/rec.


(*) for those who care. Why the higher voltage? Because batteries have internal resistance that must be overcome in order to have them accept a charge.

 

[tomcycle]

Thanks DC

Motorcycle guys have a tough time believing they could have battery problems. Then they wait way too long to fix it, not realising they are busy overloading the rest of the electrical system, melting what were once perfectly good connections and stressing out other electrical components. Which all can be avoided if they replaced the 75 buck battery.

T

 

[Bora20]

I bought a $50 batter from battery direct due to a number of reasons last year. It lasted a season. I put it on the charger and it wouldn't even charge.

I gave it to GP Moto when I bought a new Yuasa, which should last me lots of years. Crappy batteries happen all the time. With the age of this bike, I wouldn't doubt that it is shot too.

I agree with Tom…just this once

 

[Acorn]

When the bike was at river city they tested it as the first thing, said it was in perfect condition. I've also been able to charge the battery, and it holds its charge for a few days, even with the gauge light draw, which I've now fixed. All my testing here was done with the gauge completely removed from the equation, having it on a dedicated circuit makes it easy to eliminate.

As for the battery voltage at revs, I'm about 12.4 or whatever it lands at after I disconnect the jumpers, and when I rev up it simply drops voltage faster. and at idle, it continues to lose voltage. When the engine is off, it very slowly loses power simply because the battery hasn't been properly charged.

the connections inside my generator (my two yellow wires) have very low resistance, indicating that internally the generator is still connected.

I've gotten in contact with a Cagiva owner's club and I've gotten some awesome data, along with a proper owner's manual, and help with wiring tips! SO, that said, I'm still quite confident my regulator is the key issue, going off of the word of River City that my battery is still good that is.

 

[tomcycle]

Yup it sounds like rectifier regulator. I just had to ask about the battery.

Lots of simple RR out there that can be used, I would just get one that is similar to the output of the oringinal

Connect the wire for wire, I dont know what the white wire is for but I suspect something useless like an idiot light, check your wiring diagram to make sure its not needed. you should be able to find a RR for less than 40 bucks new

TT