1987 XL250R engine knock

Cedartree

New member
Hello Honda techs or friends of them or even someone who had the same problem or has afriend who had the same problem.


my 1987 XL250R has a cold knock noise that is really starting to bug me. here are some things i've noticed:


1. it only does it when the engine is cold and rarely lasts for more than a minute. it seems to match engine rpm



2. it sounds like it originates from the top end and you can actually FEEL the knock if you touch the head area


3. when starting cold, if it knocks, and i shut it off right away, then restart, sometimes the knock will not reoccur, even though the engine is still cold. sometimes i have to repeat this procedure two or more times to get it to start without knocking. when it does start without knocking and if i rev it before it is fully warm (as in normal revs between shifts, not redlining), the knock comes back until warm.


4. not sure if this is related, but the top end seems to be developing a sort of high pitched tinny rattle noise that i can hear all the time, loudest at the head, louder warm, louder from the right (timing chain) side. this noise i think is valvetrain related but hard to prove that theory. valve clearances are ok


5. sometime during warmup the knock noise stops abruptly, rather than gradually getting quieter


6. when i was setting the cam timing, i was wondering if the chain was stretched, as the marks didn't line up as close as i would have liked, to the point where i was not sure if i was one tooth out or not. i turned it over several times on the bench to verify no interference betw. valves and piston. i've timed several DOHC and SOHC engines at work so the concept and procedure wasn't the problem, no specs available for stretch limit.


7. the cam tensioner and guide showed minimal wear and the sprockets and chain seemed to be in good condition

thats all the information i have. does this give you any ideas as to what may be happening. i have 1000km (600 miles) on the overhaul now( bored .5mm over,new piston/pin/rings, bearings and oil pump, all the rest was reused.) the knock was present prior to overhaul but seems to be getting worse. the countershaft bearing grenaded and forced an overhaul, so i figured i might as well freshen it up while i was that deep into it. odo says 35,000 buti'm a little skeptical...


Any and all suggestions welcome, but spare me the "buy a new bike, buddy!!" line, ok?

signed,

wish i had a KLR
 

Island Hopper

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Could be due to wear on the cam or the followers, once warm the tolerances change and this could be why the noise fades, just a guess. How was the camshaft bearing?
 

Cedartree

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the bearings on the ends of the cam were fine, the center bearing( milled into the head and cam cover) was fine as well. there was some wear to the cam lobes, but i'm not sure what is normal wear on the followers
 

GTXR

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It could possibly be the wrist pin. Depending on the mileage on your bike the wrist pin could be getting a little worn and this will cause a cold engine knock until the piston and pin take up the tolerance between eachother. Being that the wrist pin is steal and the piston is aluminum the will wear differently and also expand differently with the heat of the engine. This would be my guess!! My 93 XR250l did the same thing for a while until i did the 280 kit on it. Just my two bits:hb:
 

evil69

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I had a xl 250r and they are known for nuking the top end! if it runs low on oil it takes out the cam and rockers!

I had mine stolen and got it back and had to replace the cam, rockers, bearings, timing chain and gears.

I did it myself and was not that had to do!
 

Floored

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So what kind of oil are you running? I'd consider going to a heavier weight, but full synthetic. During cold starts synthetic flows better so it'll hopefully pressurize the head more quickly, and it's residue gives better "dry" protection until the pressure comes up.
The heavier weight is to reduce the amount of oil being "thrown" from any worn areas, hopefully reducing anymore wear.
 

Cedartree

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evil69 wrote:
I had a xl 250r and they are known for nuking the top end! if it runs low on oil it takes out the cam and rockers!

I had mine stolen and got it back and had to replace the cam, rockers, bearings, timing chain and gears.

I did it myself and was not that had to do!
wish i knew what new parts looked like... i priced out a new cam from honda and decided that i would wait awhile on replacing ANYthing up there...
 

Cedartree

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Floored wrote:
So what kind of oil are you running? I'd consider going to a heavier weight, but full synthetic. During cold starts synthetic flows better so it'll hopefully pressurize the head more quickly, and it's residue gives better "dry" protection until the pressure comes up.
The heavier weight is to reduce the amount of oil being "thrown" from any worn areas, hopefully reducing anymore wear.
15W-40 petrocan oil right now, might try something a little lighter next to see if it changes the noise at all.
 

Floored

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Thinner oil will pressurize the head more quickly, but will be more easily shed through small worn areas (reducing presure and increasing wear). Because sythetic oil moves much more easily than regular oil when cold, it will pressurize the head more quickly. And if used in a higher weight, it will reduce the shedding & wear.
 

Cedartree

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i'm leaning toward some kind of valvetrain issue causing the noise. probably going to pull the head cover off for a look-see next week. i will try synth oil on the next service, or sooner... thanks for the replies
 

Cedartree

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well, pulled the head cover off yesterday, and found that the left hand cam bearing was wearing itself into the head where the outer race rests. not good... :mad3::mad3::mad3:however the cam itself looks ok and i was able to bring the surfaces of the head where the bearing rides back to serviceable condition withseveral carefully placed center punch marks. test started it cold this morning and no top end knock whatsoever. :tup:

the cam bearings were ok, i checked them out closely and they are good, so i am a little curious as to howthe left was able to cause the wear. not enough clamp load perhaps?

however, that problem has not affected the higher pitched tinny rattle noise, its still there, no change. at least the knock is gone...:clap:
 

Island Hopper

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Cedartree, I can see a KLR in your future. Locktite markets a product that stops the bearing from spinning in its seat.
 

Cedartree

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yes, i'm looking into a more long-term fix for the head, going to try some plastigage to help seal the bearing outer race to the head. hopefully that works out OK. still quiet though, no knocking noise. it was really starting to bother me.

yes i would like a KLR, might even get myself one in the next year or two. i'm tempted to buy new to avoid the used bike hassles i've had with this one though.

maybe new KLR owners work on their bikes less than guys who ride 19 year old hondas?
 
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