BC TCAT

verdo26

New member
Hey Folks,

I've been toying with the idea of doing the BC portion of the TCAT this summer, perhaps late mid July or early Aug. Was wondering if there were any people that have done it and can offer up any insightful info. How much highway riding is there? Can the highway be avoided at all? I have an older version of the map but should be good enough I would assume. If someone could direct me to a more recent version that might be helpful but for now I will plan based on this https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/v...&ll=50.56000197927415,-117.94661310967058&z=8

Or perhaps you know some good other smaller multi-day loops you might like to share, I'm just looking to get out and explore something this summer.

Cheers and thanks for sharing!
 

verdo26

New member
Have you found/read www.graveltravel.ca? It should have up to date info
Yeah I've gone over quite a bit of the site there but struggling to get a look at a good map. Don't have the GPS device I want to use yet so haven't gotten the up to date coordinates from them as of yet.
 

Viva-cdn

New member
Hey Folks,

I've been toying with the idea of doing the BC portion of the TCAT this summer, perhaps late mid July or early Aug. Was wondering if there were any people that have done it and can offer up any insightful info. How much highway riding is there? Can the highway be avoided at all? I have an older version of the map but should be good enough I would assume. If someone could direct me to a more recent version that might be helpful but for now I will plan based on this https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1FbIY3vxwcjWn36RWbrx6dCPMfctgZbAg&ll=50.56000197927415,-117.94661310967058&z=8

Or perhaps you know some good other smaller multi-day loops you might like to share, I'm just looking to get out and explore something this summer.

Cheers and thanks for sharing!
What part of BC are you located in?
 

Viva-cdn

New member
I'm in Salmon Arm. I've been thinking about doing some of the interior sections of the tcat this summer.
Until you get a gps, you can download the tcat gpx files and load them on one of the mapping apps on a phone or tablet. I use Locus maps on a nav station I built with an old Android phone. It's a purchased app, but has better features than most of the free ones.
 

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verdo26

New member
I'm in Salmon Arm. I've been thinking about doing some of the interior sections of the tcat this summer.
Until you get a gps, you can download the tcat gpx files and load them on one of the mapping apps on a phone or tablet. I use Locus maps on a nav station I built with an old Android phone. It's a purchased app, but has better features than most of the free ones.
That's a nice little set up. I've been trying to look at all sorts of nav apps and systems and it's doing my head in. I have an old Garmin that was given to me years ago. I'm gonna see if I can update the maps and perhaps load the backroads mapbook on it. But I'm not sure it can take it. Pretty old system. Looks like the mapbook folks made an app too.
So many choices.
 

majorbedhed

Member
I'm a huge Gaia GPS fan for Android. Yeah, doesn't give you the heads up display that a real GPS device might, but I purchased the www.graveltravel.ca GPX files for the TCAT, uploaded them to Gaia, played around on my PC and it all syncs wonderfully to my phone. It does require stopping to look at your phone when you arrive at a confusing intersection out in the boonies, or pulling out the phone to reconfirm when things just don't "feel right" - yes, that will happen from time to time. But as long as you download the maps for offline use before you boogie out, and carry and extra battery for your phone - I'm sure you'll find it's an awesome way to travel the back country with peace of mind. For added support - I purchased the Backroads Mapbook Overlay for Gaia which covers the majority of the forest service roads built in BC. Now I use Gaia for dual sport, mountain biking, and hiking. There are certainly better apps that are sport specific, but this is the best all around GPS tool I've found for what I enjoy out and about. Good luck.
 

Viva-cdn

New member
That's a nice little set up. I've been trying to look at all sorts of nav apps and systems and it's doing my head in. I have an old Garmin that was given to me years ago. I'm gonna see if I can update the maps and perhaps load the backroads mapbook on it. But I'm not sure it can take it. Pretty old system. Looks like the mapbook folks made an app too.
So many choices.
I have an old Garmin, but the map costs drove me to the phone and app solution. A repurposed Android phone and good apps like locus or Gaia offer way more versatility (plus a bigger screen and backup phone). My total cost in for phone, housing, Ram mounts, apps and maps (plus a little personal labor) is about $120. Power is a cable to a waterproof USB double port connected to a switched relay.
If I take the time to prepare a route before a trip, it will track along as I travel and I just need to glance done when I get to junctions to know where to go. I can also use Bluetooth headphones to get voice nav
 

Jaeger

Member
I've been trying to look at all sorts of nav apps and systems and it's doing my head in. I have an old Garmin that was given to me years ago. I'm gonna see if I can update the maps and perhaps load the backroads mapbook on it. But I'm not sure it can take it. Pretty old system. Looks like the mapbook folks made an app too.
So many choices.
I not only play GIS/GPS professional on the internet; I do it professionally (and dualsporting) in real life after retiring from the CAF (not the CAF of today, thank you God for small mercies). A few things:
  1. Backroads Mapbooks (I've done contract work for them regarding their maps) has electronic mapping available on multiple formats.

    In general it is much better than what Garmin provides with their Topo Canada GPS product (which is simply the Canadian government's NRCAN files anyone can download). Many of the NRCAN 1:50k map tiles haven't been updated since the late 70's/early 80's, so they're badly out of date. With BRMB, while it has far more detail and small roads and trails than anybody's NRCAN based product, it also has a lot of false positives i.e. roads that are no longer there, roads that are now behind private fencing, etc. Corrections are dependent on a customer bringing the changes to their attention. How well it displays depends on your GPS unit and the degree that you're zoomed in to. But they've made a real effort to get access to all the GIS data held by governments, logging and mining companies, etc. So there's a lot of detail there, but you have to take the finer detailed secondary roads and trails with a grain of salt.

    I haven't tried any of BRMB's products for use on mobile devices instead of on GPS units. But they offer their product through Giai, Avenza, a couple of others, and their own home cooked application. I see that one of them offers a trial version of 30 days, so I may give that one a look here in a few weeks: https://www.backroadmapbooks.com/information/mobile-maps/brmb-maps-app/

  2. My choices in handheld GPS devices are our Garmin Rino 530s and Trimble Junos from our GIS biz. For dual sport use, a Juno generally requires you to be able to create your own GPS maps from government/commercial shapefiles or geopdfs. A Juno is an extremely accurate, and expensive, survey and mapping instrument, but like handheld Garmin GPS units, it's still got a very small screen that limits your ability to see what is going on around you outside of your immediate location. Cut a square in a piece of cardboard that's about the size of your GPS screen, then throw the piece of cardboard onto an NRCAN 1:50k topo map, and you instantly get a sense of what that's like out on the trail.

  3. As a result, the happy medium (I think), is an Android tablet put to use for dual sporting. In my case, an 8" Samsung Tab carried in the map pocket on my tank bag, powered by a plug in switched relay coming through my tank bag. It also charges cellphone, camera, flashlights, etc., as well. The Rino 530 also goes along for the ride in order to map the trip, points of interest, etc as it does that better than a Tablet and has comms capabilities. Either one will slip into the side pocket on a pair of hiking shorts or pants back pocket if you're not on your bike.

    It is a pain in the butt to change map scale with the tablet riding inside the protective map pocket, but once you figure out what's comfortable scale for you while riding, you don't change map scale often after you're on the move on the trail. The field of view provided by a tablet of this size allows a lot of information while riding, rather than the peephole-like view most GPS units provide due to their relatively small screen. Ram mount alternatives are available, I see, but I prefer my tablet out of harms way on my little WR250R dual sport.

  4. There are an ever increasing number of Android mapping apps available now, both free and purchase, so the choice is yours. I am still using Dual Sport Maps, an app I helped a programmer create somewhere around ten years ago. Unfortunately, you won't find it available in Google Play for Android any more. He became annoyed that Google changed some of their structure which would have necessitated him redoing all the programming, so he just withdrew the app from the market. If you had it, you still have access to it; if you didn't have access to it, you'll never get access to it. I see he has dropped the DualSportMaps.com website and its catalogue of trips and moved it all to FascistBook. But as mentioned previously, there are lots of other mobile app choices out there to explore and trial.
 

Jaeger

Member
Excellent info @Jaeger! If/when you want to give your GPS masterclass (for DSBC members only of course), I'll be there!
Yeah, a classroom here at the East Kootenay end of the Redding Creek Pass, filled to bursting with students who just returned from riding to Crawford Bay for brunch and then back.

The world of GPS for riding has gotten as wide as what is considered dualsport riding and dualsport motorcycles. I.e. there's guys like me on my WR250R, essentially a gravel road tourist wandering the FSRs, ninja camping along the way with my flyfishing stuff in my bags for a few days, to the guys riding supertankers of 1000+ccs, to the guys riding all the gnarly single track. Definitely a wide world out there.

Generally speaking, other than for those who want to map routes and points of interest as they ride (to add to their map geodatabase and/or share with others) for which an actual GPS is still the best, I think GPS apps running on tablets of various sizes are probably going to fit the most people the best for the time being. And with ever more companies getting into the BRMB model of selling detailed topo maps for gravel road touring, hunting, backpacking, etc - all running on an Android (maybe iPad) device with a big enough screen to be really useful - I suspect it's going to just keep getting better.

For the foreseeable future the biggest problem, I think, is there is no assurance that the maps you are using on either your actual GPS or a GPS/map app on your phone or tablet is accurate.

The hypsography, streams, lakes, etc - the actual geographical features that we ride over and through doesn't change very much and doesn't change very often. That mapping is generally pretty accurate.

The cultural data i.e. the roads, bridges, etc changes regularly, and especially features like FSRs, mining exploration roads, what is fenced private property and what is not. So the primary sources for the shapefiles that topo maps are created from are governments. In Canada, the 1:50k NRCAN series comes from the federal government. I doubt that many people in the recreational mapping biz pay provinces like BC what they demand for the price of a single tile of 1:20k TRIM mapping, even though the BC government keeps TRIM fairly current. Other sources are asking lumber companies and other private entities if they will share their data on their roads, etc, or sell it at a reasonable price.

The problem with that is those sources may not have new roads in their geodatabase. And they may have roads in their geodatabase that no longer exist. Many of the local G series tiles of 1:50k NRCAN topo mapping haven't had the cultural data updated since late in the 70's or early 80's. A lot of FSRs, for example, can be built and others decommissioned over 40 years. Or around here, simply overgrown with alders to the point of no longer being passable. And lumber companies, mining companies, etc. don't always have all their road infrastructure up to date as well.

And from that it follows that individual .gpx tracks that can be downloaded along with metadata for the person who submitted it might be just as valuable as the map itself. Even that is problematic to a lesser extent. A .gpx track uploaded to a geodatabase of dualsport maps might be invalid a couple of years later. For example, about ten years ago I uploaded the .gpx track for the Ram Creek/Lussier River ride from Kimberley to the exit onto the highway in Kootenay National Park, complete with pics, to DualSportMaps.coms interactive map based geodatabase. Shortly after I had done that, there was quite a spring flood on the Ram Creek portion, washing out a portion of the road. It was still somewhat passable by two wheels and quad, but not for most locals who used that road in their pickups, SUVs, etc for hunting, fun, etc.

But the BC government's solution to repairing that FSR, was to instead take the far cheaper solution: they permanently closed the road to motorized traffic. There is no other road nearby Ram Creek that you can divert to in order to cross over into the Lussier to do that ride. About the best you can do is pop out of the bush at Skookumchuck, ride the slab until just outside of Canal Flats, and then ride back in on the White Swan Lake road to pick up the track again. The BC government has been closing long existing FSRs rather than repairing them for a long time now, and every time they do that, dual sport riders, hunters, back road roamers, etc lose more and more access to the back country. The ones who suffer the least impact are the ATV crowd - as long as the government doesn't accompany decommissioning with a prohibition on motorized access.

Anyways, somewhere out there I'm sure the .gpx track for Kimberley-Ram Creek-Kootenay National Park that I posted for others wanting to ride in the southeast corner of BC is still out there in the wild, either being shared or available for download. I can't find it to delete it, or at least attach a note that Ram Creek FSR is permanently blocked. So some guy comes into this area with his collection of downloaded topo maps and that .gpx file. Only when he gets to the closed section of Ram Creek does he realize that it is no longer a through road. And if he isn't familiar with this area, whichever end he is coming from, he doesn't have any idea of what choices he has after that "Now what do I do?" moment.

Some would call it part of the adventure of dual sport riding. For those with relatively small gas tanks on their bikes who are always aware of what they have left for range and where the next gas is, a dead end like that can be a pain in the ass or even worse.

All kinds of things to keep in mind as far as GPS, mapping, and tracks are concerned.

On the other hand, there was nothing but NRCAN 1:50k maps and better yet local knowledge prior to 1993. That would be the same year that Berniers-Lee (or whatever his name) developed the WWW and the US military made their GPS constellation operational (that military-industrial complex supposedly screwing us again...).

The first GPS I ever held was a military Magellan issued to me on a deployment to Croatia/Bosnia in 1993. About the size of two very large building bricks, and often it couldn't even get a signal, but when it worked we were sure grateful to have it to help us avoid walking into the minefields they casually threw everywhere during their battles and war. Now you have a better GPS and capabilities in your cell phone, which probably uses the Russians GLANOSS constellation as well as the US's GPS constellation.

Anyways, if I'm going to try and fool a few Westslope cutties on the Mary before it gets too hot, I better get out of the house and down to the river.
 

Viva-cdn

New member
Hey Folks,

I've been toying with the idea of doing the BC portion of the TCAT this summer, perhaps late mid July or early Aug. Was wondering if there were any people that have done it and can offer up any insightful info. How much highway riding is there? Can the highway be avoided at all? I have an older version of the map but should be good enough I would assume. If someone could direct me to a more recent version that might be helpful but for now I will plan based on this https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1FbIY3vxwcjWn36RWbrx6dCPMfctgZbAg&ll=50.56000197927415,-117.94661310967058&z=8

Or perhaps you know some good other smaller multi-day loops you might like to share, I'm just looking to get out and explore something this summer.

Cheers and thanks for sharing!
An update on TCAT suggestions.
I just finished a loop from Craigellachie up Perry River to Seymour Arm, then back down the Gorge Road section of the TCAT returning to Craigellachie. Scenery was fantastic and highly recommend this loop. Roads are decent FSR and the loop is about 200km of gravel. Lots of interesting side roads of various condition that climb up to high alpine valleys.
This loop is a good anchor for connecting to adjoining TCAT sections to make multi-day trips.
 

Jodola

Veni vidi velcro
I'm in Salmon Arm. I've been thinking about doing some of the interior sections of the tcat this summer.
Until you get a gps, you can download the tcat gpx files and load them on one of the mapping apps on a phone or tablet. I use Locus maps on a nav station I built with an old Android phone. It's a purchased app, but has better features than most of the free ones.
I’m also in Salmon Arm. CRF250L. 68yo. Average rider. Not fast, but competent. Did the Scotch Creek, Seymour Arm, 3 Valley, Lumby, Trinity Valley, Salmon Arm. Did Shaw Road Mt Ida South, Deep Creek over to Silver Creek riding area and back last week. I don’t always follow this thread but you can give it a try. J
 
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