KTM 530 EXC-R start problem

[j_snadden]

Hi.

I've got a 2008 KTM 530 that refuses to start. I suspect that the stator is at fault but haven't any specs for the unit. In particular, I'd like to know what impedence I should see from the source coil (red-black, red-white). If anyone has this model and could measure this value, it would be much appreciated. Thanks.



Jon

 

[old trials guy]

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Here is a link to an aftermarket source for pick up coils: They may not have the specific one for you bike but this is a typical unit and very similar to the one on my Sherco which has Ducati ignition:

<<http://www.rmstator.com/en/dirtbikes/universal_dirtbike_parts/dirtbike_pick_up_pulsar_coil/pickup_pulsar_coil/pickup_pulsar_coil_for__dirtbike_pick_up_pulsar_coil/2149.htm>>

They spec it at 200 ohms resistance. If you have no spark this is a common failing part. Some KTM's reported to have loose stator mounting screws causing physical damage to the pick up coil. I suggest you visually inspect the stator assembly.

Best of luck....otg

 

[j_snadden]

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Thanks OTG.



The weird thing is that I do have a spark and the stator is mounted securely. At cranking speeds I see no voltage from the source coil. Before I swap out the stator, I wanted to check the resistance .



jon

 

[old trials guy]

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I had a similar issue on my Sherco. Bike would fire up but not hold an idle or rev. Anythrottle while trying to start only caused a backfire when I rolled off the throttle. Pick up coils apparently have two outputs, low and high speed. My low speed for starting worked but the high speed output was zero or just like a kill button.

A new pick up coil solved my problem but as it turns out, my stator was fried too.

Is your pick up coil integrated with the stator or is it a separate small black box?

otg

 

[Huck2e]

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I have the exact same bike and found that without a fully charged battery my bike would not fire. One suggestion on ThumperTalk was to buy a larger 7amp battery to ensure the crank was there. I could check some outputs for you, if I knew what I was looking for. Electrical not really my thing, but I can poke wires like the best of them.

Even though the bike can be tempermental some times, I wouldn't buy any other! Keep smilin, it will run:clap:

 

[j_snadden]

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Initially I thought the marginal battery was at fault. However I'm now testing the bike with a much larger battery.

I don't seem to have any measurable voltage output from the source coil and I find it perplexing that I have a spark.

Huck, if you could measure the voltage output while cranking the bike I'd appreciate knowing what voltage your bike produces. If you could also measure the impedence from those two wires (red-black, red-white) that would be a great help.

I have the service manual for the bike but, for whatever reason, KTM provides no specs for any of the electrical components.

Thanks for your replies.



jon

 

[old trials guy]

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To the best of my knowledge, your bike will run without stator output much like a car with a bad alternator will still start and run. It just won't run for long as eventually the battery will not have enough juice to fire the coil. Known as 'dead-loss" ignition.

Your KTM is like most modern bikes and that means it has an alternator rather than a magneto.

The bikeshould spark if you have voltage in the battery and a pulse from the pick up coilassuming CDI box and coil are working.

You should not try to measure voltage off of the pick up coils as they are very fine wire coils and I doubt you will see any significant voltage from those and attempts to measure output voltage might do more harm than good. Think of the voltage as that coming from a electric guitar pick up (very low voltage and current).The CDI box amplifies that smallsignal creatingthe currentneeded todrive the coil.

You can measure the resistance through the pick up coils. You should see a small amount of resistance. If you have no resistance you have a short if you have infinite resistance you have a broken wire and open circuit.

As far as the charging system, you should have three wires coming out going to the regulator rectifier. You can measure resistance on those to see if there is a short or they are open. Again they should have a low resistance value.

The easiest way I have found to measure stator output is to charge up your battery, start the bike and measure voltage across the battery terminals. A fully charged battery willread 12.6 volts. The charging system should increase the voltage reading across the battery terminals to plus 13.5v. Of course you have to get it running first.

If it is not starting but has spark I might be tempted to look at other areas. Is the plug wet with gas? Do you have compression? High performance four strokes are notoriously hard starting when intake valves have little or no clearance.

otg

 

[j_snadden]

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The ignition system on the 530 is quite a bit different. There are two outputs. One is connected to the regulator and serves to charge the battery and run lights. The other (source) output is connected to the CDI unit. The battery is not connected to the CDI unit and therefore isn't partof the ignition circuit.

The ac pickup (or "pulse generator") is also connected to the CDI unit.

I'm using a SnapOn graphic meter and have no measurable voltage from either of the two outputs at cranking speed. It's quite possible that at higher speeds there would be voltage.

At this point I'm not sure why I even have spark.

 

[c337b]

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Is this bike new to you?? I tried starting my new to me Husaberg the other morning Choke out a twist of the trottle hit the magic button and it just would not start .Try the e-button some moreKicked it over for 15 minutes and gave up. Buddy came over and told me to Put the choke in pull the hot start. Ihit the starter and she fired up in seconds

Just a thought

 

[j_snadden]

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I'm pretty sure it's not a fueling issue. I've pulled the carb apart twice and it checks out fine. The carb is an FCR with pump and I can flood the venturi with just a twist of the throttle. You would think that I would at least get a "pop"

The valve clearances are within spec (.005" intake and exhaust). The air gap at the pickup seems excessive but is not adjustable. I did pick up a spare and modified the mount to bring it closer to the flywheel. Made no difference.

 

[Sparkle]

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Hi j_snadden:

The pulse coil isn't designed to produce an AC waveform, or any real voltage. Itis designed to produce a very short and low level signal only once per revolution,difficult to seewith a meter and even hard to spot with an oscilloscope or scanner especially at cranking speed. I don't think the CDI and the plug would fire without a usuable signal from the pulse coil, and if you have spark it must be another problem perhaps related to timing, but maybe fuel or compression.

No output from the charging coils would be normal at cranking speeds bearing in mind the lights on at start.

another $ .02 CAD

Sparkle

 

[old trials guy]

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Here is a picture of what is described as a KTM 530 EXC ignition system. Looks like an alternator and a pulse or source coil and CDI box.

The alternator portion will likely have 3 output wires typically all the same color. The pulse coil will have two wires. Spark will come from input from pulse coil to cdi box to high tention coil. Battery supplies power to the coil if you have a system like this.

It could be a timing issue like Sparkle suggests which can occur if the flywheel key shears. It is rare but not unheard of.

I would check all connectors to insure everything is clean and tight, charge battery, check battery voltage (12.5+ volts) and if there is spark I would look elsewhere.

I wish these keyboards had a cents sign for my 2 cents worth.

Good luck.

otg

 

[j_snadden]

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Well I managed to locate and download an older KTM document with some specs for the Kokusan ignition system. Since the 530 ignition system is virtually identical, the values given should be representative of what I should be seeing.
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The output from the pulse coil should be 4.5 volts +/- .5. I have less than 1 volt.

The ouput from the source coil (to the CDI unit) should be 30/35 voltsdisconnected and 200 volts connected to the CDI unit. I have .61 volts regardless of whether it's plugged into the CDI or left disconnected.

I've ordered a new pulse coil and stator.

What is interesting is that the stator is a three phase with the third phase grounded to earth. I've never run across anything even remotely similar but most of my experience is with road bikes.

 

[Sparkle]

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I'm not sure if those voltage readings are at cranking speed or with the bike running. Here's another page on Kokusan CDI (not your bike but maybe valid):

http://www.husaberg.org/wiki/index.php/Electrical

They show the ignition trigger volts at 1~1.5 at 200 RPM (cranking speed). And the ignition (magneto) capacitor charge volts at 15 or so...of course these values are much higher when the bike is actually running.

I've spent lots of frustrating hours puzzling over newer bikesand often wonder why it has to be so "special" and complicated and expensive.Especially just to fire a single cylinder in a slow speed engine. What bothers me most is the secrecy and lack of information that seems to force you to buy new stuff rather than fix the old.

I don't do that anymore, I've reverted to anold crate that has magneto and points, and always seems to run okay. I can replace the parts for peanuts, or make them myself.

anyway...good luck.

Sparkle

 

[Huck2e]

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I will check the resistance and voltage off my bike and get back to you. Another thing I am wondering is if you have dome the modifications to the fuel and evaporation system as laid out on Thumper Talk. The reason I ask is that if the mods have not been done this bike is notorious for filling the catch can full of fuel (black canister located in swing arm front of rear tire) and bike is continuously flooded and won't start until it is empty. As well, the drain line that is attached to the front left side of your frame has a plug in the end of it that may need draining as well. Just a few thoughts. I hope the new parts work out, but I will check the voltages and resistance to see where they are at on my bike.

Shamus

 

[tomcycle]

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j_snadden wrote:

What is interesting is that the stator is a three phase with the third phase grounded to earth. I've never run across anything even remotely similar but most of my experience is with road bikes.

Be careful about the wording of the "Three Phase" It took me a while to get my head around this with my KLX

What they ment with the KLX is

One phase for CDI

One phase for pulse coil

One phase for lighting

=Three Phase electical system

Looks the same on your KTM, so what you realy have is a single phase lighting coil. The lighting phase can not be grounded to the chassis anywhere if this is the case (your battery will not charge even thought it appears to have the right voltage. The two yelo wires for the lighting coil should go to a voltage regulator rectifier, non of the wires should be grounded.

The Coil Phase will be grounded to the bike chassis

The CDI phase goes to the.........CDI

Dont think this will help your starting problem but might help understand the stator



Tom

 

[old trials guy]

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tomcycle wrote:

j_snadden wrote:

What is interesting is that the stator is a three phase with the third phase grounded to earth. I've never run across anything even remotely similar but most of my experience is with road bikes.

Be careful about the wording of the "Three Phase" It took me a while to get my head around this with my KLX

What they ment with the KLX is

One phase for CDI

One phase for pulse coil

One phase for lighting

=Three Phase electical system

Looks the same on your KTM, so what you realy have is a single phase lighting coil. The lighting phase can not be grounded to the chassis anywhere if this is the case (your battery will not charge even thought it appears to have the right voltage. The two yelo wires for the lighting coil should go to a voltage regulator rectifier, non of the wires should be grounded.

The Coil Phase will be grounded to the bike chassis

The CDI phase goes to the.........CDI

Dont think this will help your starting problem but might help understand the stator



Tom

I hate to be argumentative but I think most of the electric start dual sports use a 3 phase "Wye" type alternator with all three outputs running to the rectifier (diode pack) where AC is converter to DC. The link below explains it well:

<<http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3_phase_basics.htm>>

In this type of system the coil is a DC coil powered by the battery similar to that in a car.

Some bikes have a simple single phase ignition coil powering an AC coil typically seen on motocrossbikes and older dirt bikes.

This is a must read that explains the differences between AC and DC ignition:

<<http://dansmc.com/cdiignition.htm>>

Keep in mind, CDI comes in two flavors, DC or battery powered which is what you almost always find on an electric start bike and AC or magneto powered typically on a motocross or older dirt bike.

I hope this helps shed a light on different ignition systems.

otg

 

[Wopper]

OK Im going to ask for some help here too, was out riding on the weekend on my 09 530, was halfway into the ride, shut down the bike and it wouldnt crank with the red button, just clicking from the starting solenoid. removed seat and checked battery terminals, all tight, checked the fuse, = OK, quick check on wiring looked OK.
Fired the bike by kicking - UGH - rode back without stopping.....
Shut down, it hadn't self fixed, hmmmmm.
So tonight, unload bike, remove seat, check battery voltage, reading 16 v.... still nothing with red button.
Connect charger on 70 a start , it will crank for a few seconds, turn over very slowly, then stop.
Still wont crank without battery charger, but all system appears OK.
I am thinking starter bearings or brushes tight???
Anyone else had this issue?
PS, bike has always been a happy starter, no issues with jetting or anything else like that, it just doesnt want to turn over with the red button.....any ideas???

 

[LordEndo]

Wopper I had a similar issue on my WR. It would nearly attempt a start but just keep dying out, but ran fine. My kill switch / starter switch box on the handlebar must have come loose inside on a fall or something. After pulling it apart to measure voltage and such, testing, and putting it back together it all works fine again - my bike is new though so it didn't stand to reason that anything would be worn out.

 

[Wopper]

Thanks Lord, I posted this one on another thread, turned out the battery had died during my ride, apparently everything survived, stator, VR, etc, new battery = all happy now!!