Bill 13 Off Road Vehicle Act for BC

[motogirl]

I'm glad I found this thread (actually, was directed to it!) because I've been wondering who else has been discussing the implications of this new legislation. I know there has been talk about it on the VIBikers forum and around VIHSS (hare scramble series). I'll admit that I haven't read all the pages of this yet, but I'll go back and do that now.

My opinion, beyond this being a revenue grab, is that the legislation was written/proposed/whatever by people who don't ride, and don't understand off-road riding at all. I've understood that BCORMA has had something to do with this, but that puzzles me, just because of some of the wacky rules involved. I have to wonder if BCORMA has riders' interests in mind at all with this. (And yes, I have paid for my BCORMA membership and trail pass this year)

I was in a discussion on FB about this when someone from BCORMA said that they have been involved and really it's all just 'common sense stuff' they're enforcing, such as having to be able to flat-foot straddle your dirtbike, minimum age limits, requiring a lighting kit on the bike, etc. To me, as a trail rider / hare scramble racer, this kind of thing isn't 'common sense', it's detrimental to our ability to be able to ride competition bikes in the woods, hold events & hare scrambles, and to get kids involved in the sport. As a *ahem* 'short person' does that mean I can no longer ride my full size bike in the woods without being afraid of getting caught and getting a ticket (or bike seized, as that's also in the legislation...)?

Anyway, I'm concerned, and I'm concerned that time is running out to do anything about this ridiculousness.

 

[Victoria Supermoto]

Ya ok Tom
50000 riders only eh? I think your a bit off on that one. You do know that ICBC already has the infrastructure to register vehicles and so on... So the $49 break even number is well gravy all that will be needed is a new box to check off. The $18 registration is charged no matter what its a paperwork fee period this will be charged everytime you need to do anything with ICBC just like your car. So the Tax has nothing to do with ICBC? You do know that the BC Government owns ICBC right and they like tax money? Also that ICBC has been mandated to come up with $XXX every year for use of the Guv. ICBC has been trying for years to register license and Insure RUM's They just have never had a body willing to "speak on behalf of Dirt Bikers" as to agree and bow down to the GUV while claiming to be a voice of many. Hell BCORMA has 35 "likes" on FB sounds like the Voice of every Dirt rider in BC to me. Can you give a list of maintained trails that BCORMA has been supporting or where the fees have been going?? After speaking to an insurance agent who has gone to some training on this some questions have come up. Such as If you have no proof of ownership do you have to do a missing reg search? They are not sure but most likely. If that is the case and your bike has never been registered you will need to have it inspected. Meaning in god working order no oil leaks broken stuff etc. Then you need to pay the PST on your bike cant Prove what you paid then you will pay on an assessed market value on the bike. Cant gift the bike ether unless its from family.
Have you been reading the parts on how you can get your bike Impounded?? For riding in an unsafe manor, speeding, and so on. So rip up a burm to quick and an officer decides it was not safe oops they took your bike dont like it too bad you can have it after you pay the fines.
Seizure — evidence

22 (1) If an officer has reasonable grounds to believe that

(a) an offence has been committed under section 17 (1) (a) or (b) or (2) (a) or (b) [operation of off-road vehicles] of this Act or a prescribed provision of the regulations,

(b) an off-road vehicle or any vehicle or equipment that is attached to or is being towed by an off-road vehicle will afford evidence of the commission of the offence, and

(c) the delay that would be necessary to obtain a warrant would result in the loss or destruction of evidence,

the officer, without a warrant, may seize the off-road vehicle, vehicle or equipment referred to in paragraph (b) of this subsection for the purpose of obtaining or preserving evidence.

(2) Sections 23 (4) and 24 to 24.2 of the Offence Act apply in respect of an off-road vehicle, a vehicle or equipment seized under subsection (1) of this section and, for the purposes of section 23 (4) of the Offence Act, an officer is deemed to be a peace officer.
Seizure — safety

23 (1) If an officer has reasonable grounds to believe that

(a) a person has committed an offence under section 17 (1) (a) or (b) [operation of off-road vehicles], and

(b) the use or operation of an off-road vehicle on Crown land or prescribed private land by the person may endanger or cause injury to persons, wildlife, livestock or domestic animals, or damage to property,

the officer, without a warrant, may seize the off-road vehicle.

(2) The officer, within 48 hours of a seizure under this section, must release the off-road vehicle

(a) to the person from whom it was seized,

(b) to another person at the direction of the person from whom it was seized, or

(c) to the owner of that off-road vehicle.

Detention of seized property until fine paid

29 (1) This section applies if

(a) a person is convicted of an offence under this Act,

(b) property is ordered returned to the person under section 24.2 (4) (a) or (b) of the Offence Act, and

(c) a fine is imposed on that person by the court.

(2) Despite the order under section 24.2 (4) (a) or (b) of the Offence Act, the responsible official as defined in section 24 (1) of that Act must deliver the property referred to in subsection (1) (b) of this section to the minister and the minister may detain that property until the fine is paid.

(3) If the fine referred to in subsection (1) (c) is not paid within the time the court sets for payment, the detained property is forfeited to the government, to be disposed of as the minister directs.

(4) Proceeds of a disposition under subsection (3) must be applied towards payment of the fine referred to in subsection (1) (c).

I do have to say that ICBC does have a history of being Fair and acomidating to the people of BC! Oh right they did bring in the laws about impounding your bike like the one about lifting your butt off the seat will get you impounded among other idiotic laws.

I am sorry but I will not go quietly into the night and behave like I am told to do.

 

[Shuswap]

I'm glad I found this thread (actually, was directed to it!) because I've been wondering who else has been discussing the implications of this new legislation. I know there has been talk about it on the VIBikers forum and around VIHSS (hare scramble series). I'll admit that I haven't read all the pages of this yet, but I'll go back and do that now.

My opinion, beyond this being a revenue grab, is that the legislation was written/proposed/whatever by people who don't ride, and don't understand off-road riding at all. I've understood that BCORMA has had something to do with this, but that puzzles me, just because of some of the wacky rules involved. I have to wonder if BCORMA has riders' interests in mind at all with this. (And yes, I have paid for my BCORMA membership and trail pass this year)

I was in a discussion on FB about this when someone from BCORMA said that they have been involved and really it's all just 'common sense stuff' they're enforcing, such as having to be able to flat-foot straddle your dirtbike, minimum age limits, requiring a lighting kit on the bike, etc. To me, as a trail rider / hare scramble racer, this kind of thing isn't 'common sense', it's detrimental to our ability to be able to ride competition bikes in the woods, hold events & hare scrambles, and to get kids involved in the sport. As a *ahem* 'short person' does that mean I can no longer ride my full size bike in the woods without being afraid of getting caught and getting a ticket (or bike seized, as that's also in the legislation...)?

Anyway, I'm concerned, and I'm concerned that time is running out to do anything about this ridiculousness.

I'm going to agree with you motogirl and while I (thankfully) learn something new every day, I have been riding for over 47 years.
Flatfoot is ridiculous, betcha no more than 25% of the off-road motorcycle community can stand that way.

As with most STUPID legislation *that common-sense cannot head-off* this will be ignored by many participants. As for the comment about the Coroner driving this legislation, seriously....there aren't that many ATV deaths in western Canada to justify that intrusion. Although I don't have numbers at hand I would suggest that based on participation, scuba diving, snowmobiling and drinking the water are right up there also.

Tom: Those were not my numbers, I presented no math at all. AND, "we can't take care of our kids"? Really?

 

[offworlder]

Alot of great info and valid points made here - but lets not fall into dissent - we need to act !
Here's the contact info for the minister responsible for this - let HIM know what you think !
Remember folks, talk - action = zero !!
[h=5]Minister's Office[/h]HONOURABLE STEVE THOMSON
PO BOX 9049 STN PROV GOVT
VICTORIA BC V8W 9E2
Telephone: 250 387-6240
Fax: 250 387-1040

email: [email protected]

website:
http://stevethomsonmla.bc.ca

twitter:
https://twitter.com/Steve4Kelowna

 

[tomcycle]

Like everyone here I just have an opinion, so just take it for what its worth. Some of what I post here is based on what I believe is fact, like 50000 dirt bikes I really doubt there are 500,000 in BC. Dont believe the coroners office is involved? I guess I just make this stuff up then. Just the same Registration and Licencing is coming (Im not making this up) What are we going to do about it? At least we have a forum to have some discussion of our thoughts here. It would be nice if we could get some of those that are involved from BCORMA or others to give us the strait goods, I doubt that will happen though.

There is a lot to digest here and can not be answered in one post, this legislation will affect everyone that has a dirt bike or rides off road.

Can we take care of our kids? Im out at least two weekend per month. I watch adults have their kids siting on the tank of their quad usually without a helmet riding down an active forest service road that is way to busy not only with campers, other off road user also mix of heavy equipment like 100,000 logging trucks etc. Who honestly thinks this is a good mix? It obvious that most of the parents that let their kids ride on these roads have no problem with it. I watch this and think to myself that we are our own worst enemy.

RUM bikes is a whole other can of worms. Loud pipes, no spark arrestors and who needs lights at night?

Tom

 

[Shuswap]

According to the Minister there are around 200,000 ORVs in BC:

"ORVs are used in a variety of sectors in British Columbia, including farming, ranching, forestry, oil and gas, mining, sport, tourism, transportation and search and rescue. It's estimated that 200,000 ORVs are in use in B.C., and while snowmobiles have been registered in the province since the 1970s, we are currently one of the last provinces in Canada that does not require registration of other off-road vehicles."

Quote taken from:http://www.dailytownsman.com/breaking_news/247265681.html

 

[skidmark43]

According to the Minister there are around 200,000 ORVs in BC:

"ORVs are used in a variety of sectors in British Columbia, including farming, ranching, forestry, oil and gas, mining, sport, tourism, transportation and search and rescue. It's estimated that 200,000 ORVs are in use in B.C., and while snowmobiles have been registered in the province since the 1970s, we are currently one of the last provinces in Canada that does not require registration of other off-road vehicles."

Quote taken from:http://www.dailytownsman.com/breaking_news/247265681.html

Thanks for the clarity Shuswap.

This source indicates 200,000 ORV's; including snowmobiles, quads, SxSs and dirtbikes (not street-legal / factory dualsports). Based on our info from COHV & MMIC, dirtbikes constitute only 10-20% of this number...

So I would suggest that Tom's guesstimate of 50,000 is probably very close / overstated. The 1/2MM put forth by VicSuMo is absurd.

Anyhooo; nice to see this discussion occurring, albeit 5-7 years too late. Tom & I are among countless other volunteers, who've tried to reshape the legislation / public opinion; but with few resources & support have probably made very little difference.

FYI, BCORMA is holding it's AGM in a few weeks. They claim to have ~25 member clubs from across the province. At last count only 7 people (representing 6 clubs + Peter the sole staffer of BCORMA) have confirmed attendance. Pathetic disinterest in our sport; no wonder we're feeling pushed around by government & ICBC.

 

[farmerger]

Personally I don't see a problem with registering the dirt bikes. And as long as you ride responsibly and with consideration to others and the environment I don't see how having a registered bike will cause you any grief. Motogirl mentioned some regs regarding flat footing while on the bike, I could not find any reference to any kind of riding restrictions anywhere. Do you have a link? There does however seem to be a lot of fear mongering about the regisitration. Quite honestly how does the registration affect where and where not we are allowed to ride off road, note I said off road not on an active FSR. Those battles will continue, just that with the registration all they will need is to get your plate number and you are busted.

What does bother me is that with all these things if you do the right thing and register and happen to get caught taking a shortcut down the FSR you get fined and the guy that didn't register just takes off. Pretty hard to fix this though.

Where I think this will fail is the crap about having to pay PST on your dirt bike, etc. As always our politicians are too dumb to realize that this will virtually guarantee that even those of us who think registering the bike is good may not do it because quite frankly paying PST on sh*t I already own is wrong.

 

[Victoria Supermoto]

Tom you have miss the point of this if your saying No to Rum's You need to rethink what your doing. You missed the point Feel free to rattle on about this and that. Its a cash grab Thanks for fucking up a lot of peoples hobbies.

 

[tomcycle]

Hey Victoria Supermoto, can I call you tard for short?

Tard, go back and read the post again, I said RUMs "is a whole other can of worms"

Oh yea, thanks for the permission to "rattle on" I was going to keep my thoughts to myself as I usually do

(licence and registration)Its a cash grab? like me you are entitled to your opinion, but lets agree to 500,000 dirt bikes is a little off the mark? Once you actually do some research and return with a real number of dirt bikes, than we can discuss if this is a tax grab.

By the way, nice use of that special word, you must be a college graduate? (no offence meant to college graduates)

Being a college graduate, perhaps you can bring the conversation down to a 12 year olds level and explain how my opinion and comments are "f****** up a lot of people hobbies", I know it will be difficult, but it will help me to understand what point you are trying to make.

Good luck on the sale of your "street legal" RUM.

Tom

 

[Victoria Supermoto]

Geeze Tom I thought I would use words that you could relate to. So attacking me now sweet LOL Fool HAHAHA
Ok now I can add to this. I seemed to have touched a nerve and rightly so maybe now you wont tell me I am out in left field with anything I think oh wait it doesn't agree with your opinion so you will, and Its Mr. Tard to you or just Sir will do.
So where where we oh ya right more then Dual sport bikes use the bush and you seem to miss that with your RUM comment. "RUM bikes is a whole other can of worms. Loud pipes, no spark arrestors and who needs lights at night?" is what you said in a flavor of down with Rum's just given the scarasum you put in.
Am I selling a Rum bike???? Not that I am aware of but thanks for the assumption and the effort it does mean a lot to me. Truly it does.
You seem to miss the family's that go dirt biking on these dreaded rum's with the 6 year olds destroying the wilderness with no lights and loud pipes the Horror!! Once you add in licensing, policing etc to this you will not see people in the numbers going into the bush as you once did. I did enjoy your explanation on the impound stuff I pointed out It was full of explanation and it realy made me think about it. Or any thoughts on flat footing a bike....Oh wait you just called me a tard. OOOH and that I be a collagier graguater (that one hurt I cried).

Honestly Tom..

 

[tomcycle]

I have been known to use some pretty colourful language from time to time. I was told by the moderators to moderate my use of such language as this could set a bad example, not to mention all my posts would start reading the same.

I glad you enjoyed my response, I can only hope you chuckled as much as I did while typing it.

T

 

[North]

If you have every been to Stave Lake during a long weekend, you knew this was coming.

I can't speak for the whole act, but I don't see that having Plates and Insurance on OVRs that use Private and Crown Lands as a bad thing.

What always gets me is, that instead of going after the Losers that cause all the shit. The Government makes Laws to restrict everyone.

 

[rz35027]

What always gets me is, that instead of going after the Losers that cause all the shit. The Government makes Laws to restrict everyone.

Too true.... always reactive and overboard with the responses.

 

[tomcycle]

Sir Tard


I know we have to do something about those six year olds, they are out of control. Lets see now, we can use R&L to kick them off the FSRs. Yup that sounds like a good plan. Hey I got an idea, how about we create a safe places for kids to ride? I know its a silly idea, lets just let them tear up and down FSRs, campgrounds, parking lots and private land, we can do something after a kid gets run over buy a Logging truck, car, 4x4, SXS, quad, motorhome or uninsured RUM bike rider.


To switch gears again, on a unrelated topic to R&L

I dont know why you think I am against RUM bikes, I got one in my garage. I don't recall any discussion on restricting RUM bikes from off road use? You might be getting your topics mixed up?

Do you have trouble reaching the ground with your feet when your riding your bike? Dont feel bad, I know some really good riders that cant touch the ground with both feet at the same time.

 

[Victoria Supermoto]

It states in the bill that one should be able to flat-foot straddle your dirt bike, minimum age limits, requiring a lighting kit on the bike, and so on. Where do you think people dirt bike? I think you are against rum bikes because you eluded to being so given your post. I do enjoy that your skirting the questions and trying to make this personal. That doesn't work with me, but it does show your attitude towards valid concerns and more overall the obvious problems with this situation.

 

[North]

The problem is that there are more and more ORVs out there now. The Bush for a lot people, is just a free-for-all. There does need to be responsible management of ORVs and those who ride them.

 

[tomcycle]

It states in the bill that one should be able to flat-foot straddle your dirt bike, minimum age limits, requiring a lighting kit on the bike, and so on. Where do you think people dirt bike? I think you are against rum bikes because you eluded to being so given your post. I do enjoy that your skirting the questions and trying to make this personal. That doesn't work with me, but it does show your attitude towards valid concerns and more overall the obvious problems with this situation.

ST

I appreciate that you think that I have so much influence over this legislation, like you I am only one man and I don't have any connections with the government (other than the taxman) I do have an opinion, sometimes several on the same topic, and am willing to discuss on this forum just about anything that involves motorcycling.

What about being able to sit flat footed while straddling your dirt bike? I cant find it in the L&R, but its probably not a bad idea that you should at least be able to touch the ground. Like most people, it does not affect me, so I dont care, perhaps you could make the argument why I should care? Maybe someone could let me know what section of the L&R that makes the statement?

Minimum Age Limits, there is a lot in the Legislation regarding age limits, again could you be a little more specific on this rather than a blanket statement. What I have read about the age limits, are restrictions on transfer of ownership, and operation of off road vehicles. I dont have a problem with restricting those pesky six year olds from selling their dirt bikes or quads without adult permission. Again if you could provide us or me with exactly what you see as the problem, then we could discuss each others views and provide some examples of why the new rule is good or bad.

Required Lighting, this one I found. The act simply states that you must have lighting if you ride at night. Sounds like common sense to me, but I do agree with you that once the government translates common sense to law something seems to get lost.

Lighting and illumination19 A person must not use or operate an off-road vehicle on Crown land or prescribed private land from 1/2 hour after sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise or at any other time when, due to insufficient light or unfavourable atmospheric conditions, objects are not clearly discernible at a distance specified by regulation unless all of the following apply:


(a) the off-road vehicle carries all lamps, reflectors and other illuminating devices required by the regulations;
(b) all of the required lamps, reflectors and other illuminating devices are maintained in good working order and in accordance with any requirements specified by regulation;
(c) all of the required lamps and other illuminating devices are illuminated.

About RUM bikes, I will have to concede to you. I dont know what you read in which post that makes me against RUM bikes, but if I wrote it it must be true. I spent my hard earned cash on a RUM bike so I could pose as a "real dirt biker" You got me on this one. Now that we have that out in the open. Anyone interested in buying a gently used TXC 450?

T

 

[Victoria Supermoto]

This right here "Like most people, it does not affect me, so I don't care". This way of thinking is the single most distructive thing happening to motorcycling. You say you cant do anything yet your an admin on a duelsport bike forum and in the BCORMA thread to boot. No you couldn't do anything.
The it does not affect me, so I don't care way of thinking is how bad things start and grow. Do you not see this? Motorcycling is very fragmented in its support of each other. Recently in BC laws were brought in that border on the absurd. One example is if you lift your but off the seat its an impound. AN IMPOUND!! not a ticket its an impound. So ICBC starts insureing off road bikes how do you think that's going to effect your insurance on your street bike?? It will it has in other provinces.
You keep defaulting to insults and sarcasm congrats you have a Rum bike woot. As do lots of other people.

You say you have no power to do anything but bring in money for BCORMA. In your words in this thread:
Its too late to stop Registration and Licencing. but its not to late to double down and buy another (or first) BCORMA Trail Pass, with a little money and luck we can help shape the rules that will be imposed on us. Or you can just sit on this and other sites and complain how the government is sticking it to us all the time. Either way a small group of volunteers will keep on arguing with the government on our (your) behalf

 

[tomcycle]

ST

I enjoy this banter back and forth, as it seems no one else will play with you. For some reason you think I have the answers? How about you coming up with some solutions? What are you doing about R&L? If you can put together some clear and definable arguments you might get some support from some others on this site and I can go away.

RUM :woohoo:

T