Bill 13 Off Road Vehicle Act for BC

[DirtClunker]

I was told that the members of the JAG have privileged information, but that does not preclude them from advising their membership of the concerns or recommendations that they brought to the table. In fact we agreed that it would be beneficial so that we know that our concerns are at least being asked even if we don't get an answer we know the question was asked. (are you listening BCORMA?)

Well ain't that just nice. BCORMA SUCKS at communications to the end user. All along, they were saying they were under a gag order, and now we hear from the Govt that they could have be talking to us the whole effin time.

Who appointed these arseholes as our representatives? Keerist.

 

[Cultusking]

I see BCORMA as no more than a privately funded Boys club who doesn't report to anyone. Who's best interests are to fill their pockets with cash and do as little pro-active work as possible.
It would seem to me that dealing directly with the government agencies as Tom has done lately inspires more of a response than anything BCORMA has done.
It would also seem that although the wheels spin a little backwards sometimes with the government, we as a people need to find the "actual" person within the government that has the power to help motorized off-road users and get them involved in our plight.
I believe that is the angle Tom is seeking?

 

[DirtClunker]

So BCORMA has the Govt convinced, as well as the various clubs convinced, that they are the representatives of the off road motorcyclists of BC. And their new coalition now represents *all* off road users of BC.

However, BCORMA is *not* representing the off road users very well.

 

[tomcycle]

BCORMA has a huge problem with communication, I know that from my personal experience from sitting on that board. The board has always agreed that they needed to improve how BCORMA has to get the message out but nothing has ever been done to any degree of success.

Who would I blame? well ultimately it would have to be the entire Board of Directors, which would be the member clubs. I can add that while I was president I instructed the Executive Director (well paid employee of BCORMA) on several occasions to start a program to get the BCORMA message out. The program was simple and cheap, whether he could not do it or did not want to do it I cant say, what as for sure he was not going to take any direction from the president. I did not have the support of the board so nothing got done. Things deteriorated from there.

I am sure when BCORMA has their meetings they still say to themselves that they have to improve their communications to the members, but after so many years of not doing anything about the situation that they no longer see it as being a major issue and convinced themselves they are doing a great job for dirt bikers.


Now look at this last BCORMA decree for a "Call for Action" August 12

Peter @BCORMA @bcorma
Call for action to all OHV: tell your MLA NO to 5 x 7 metal registration plates! BCORMA has fought for decals or small plastic since day 1.

Its been 15 days and we have had nothing from BCORMA. DSBC is a member of BCORMA and has not been informed of anything either. So if member clubs are not kept up to date how is the poor lowly dirt biker ever going to find out whats happening?

Seems to be neither rhyme nor reason to their actions?

Just a reminder to everyone, BCORMA gets no Government Funding to operate. Presently BCORMA annually gets a operating grant from the Canadian Off Highway Vehicle Distributors Council COHV about 36,000.00 annually , from BCORMA Trail Pass Sales about 35,000.00, donations 1-2000.00. Insurance sales 2-3000.00 membership fees 3,000.00,

They pay their Executive Director around 60,000.00 plus expenses 6000.00+ annually. I will let you do the math. I am sure your calculations will make you wonder how BCORMA can get anything done.

NEXT, lets talk about National Trails Coalition NTC Funding

Tom

 

[DirtClunker]

BCORMA has a huge problem with communication...
Now look at this last BCORMA decree for a "Call for Action" August 12



Its been 15 days and we have had nothing from BCORMA. DSBC is a member of BCORMA and has not been informed of anything either. So if member clubs are not kept up to date how is the poor lowly dirt biker ever going to find out whats happening?

Yes, exactly. I bagered Peter Sprague on Facebook on how "he" was getting the communcations out and he said he was sending a message to member clubs. Like DSBC, I have asked the VMC, and they have heard nothing about this. I guess he figures facebook and twitter is good enough...

 

[tomcycle]

For the record, not one of the BCORMA board members get paid, they are all volunteers (although some board members got paid thru the last round of NTC funding but I will save that for another thread)

BCORMAs Executive Director get the Lions Share of BCORMAs funding dollars, as such I would think he has a lot to answer for as he has been the ED for some 6+ years.

 

[DirtClunker]

Ahhh, that explains a lot.

 

[Cultusking]

Is there any auditing of the BCORMA funds? Where it got spent etc???

 

[DirtClunker]

We should remember that BCCORMA is the Voice of The off road rider in BC. They Represent every one who rides off road in the eyes of the current government, Revenue Canada and ICBC. Now for claiming to be a voice of everyone on this forum and many many other forums like this one with the powers to help dictate how you (the person reading this) and many many other people participate in this sport they are very silent on asking our opinions, asking for our input or giving out any information on this situation. To me it seems that BCCORMA is nothing more than a special interest group that looks after its own and those whom pay up. I would like to be corrected if I am wrong but BCCORMA simply hands out the "trust us" line with little else explained.

Yep. +1 and all that stuff.

 

[tomcycle]

Is there any auditing of the BCORMA funds? Where it got spent etc???

No not an audit but the books and accountants filings are presented by the treasurer and discussed at the BCORMA AGM, then a motion is passed to accept the report from the treasurer.

Rough totals for 2013 for BCORMA is income 152K expenses 149k ED took about 85K insurance took about 20K Trail Passes with insurance and other expenses took about 12K then you have all the other little expenses that total up to the 149K

If you did the math from the previous post you will find there is little left to audit, much less discuss.

I am going to guess that BCORMA does not want to make its books public, they have their reasons and those might be legitimate. I can tell you as a former BCORMA board member that I thought for reasons of transparency the BCORMA meeting minutes and finances should be easily available to any member thru the website. This has not ever gone over well with the others on the board particularly the ED, who does not sit on the board but provides plenty of advise.

T

 

[DirtClunker]

So what action can be taken?

Diplomatically: we get as many members as possible to sign a petition/write letters for clearer communication; involvement directly from members; no work without adequate member notification; open books.

Aggressive: we get as many members as possible to show up to a meeting and demand the items above.

Hostile: get as members as possible to write their MLA, govts and whoever supplies the funds to indicate BCORMA and the ORC *do not* represent off road users and funding should cease immediately. A new group should be established that has in it charter the items above.

I suppose before any member action can be taken, we must be clear on all the points of complaint.

 

[DirtClunker]

OK, I have had a bit of time to think about this. What bugs me about BCORMA?

(1) They claim to represent the offroad motorcyclists, but have little communication with them
(2) The ORV act was done in secret without involvement from its' members (and we find out after the fact they could have told us all kinds of stuff and involved the members)
(3) The communication to the members is poor to non-existant
(4) Their books/spending are not transparent
(5) There is no input directly from the members

And personally: the speech as the Loose Screw pissed me right off:
(1) Taxing privately sold vehicles is NOT "leveling the playing field" between dealers and private individuals - because the CUSTOMER ALWAYS PAYS THE TAXES.
(2) There is *no* benefit to the riders to the ORV act. Period. Zilch. Zero. We dont get more land, we dont get plates that allow us on the roads. But BCORMA spins it as "great for safety". Give me a break.

Personally I would be much more happy if the BCORMA rep sold it like it was. We were forced into it, it is a tax grab (privately sold bikes) and monitoring illegal activities (plats on private land). Guys who spin things are transparent and just telling lies. It is insulting.

I am sure y'all would like to tweak this list...

 

[Ntl#1x4]

As far as I have seen in my short experience and keeping up with BCORMMA, they have NEVER been transparent about anything going on. Its been a " give us your money, buy a trail pass, we are looking after you" How?

 

[Farp]

Well, there's been a lot of negative comments here about BCORMA and they certainly seem to be justified. But is it all bad? In fairness to BCORMA can anybody list some positive things that BCORMA's done? If nobody on this site can list some positive actions from BCORMA maybe that's because this is primarily a dual-sport site. Perhaps some of the dirt bike sites have a different opinion about BCORMA. If not, then why do we need BCORMA?

I've been buying trail passes and supporting BCORMA for a number of years but I don't know of a single thing that BCORMA has done that has benefited me personally. Tom and company have built an outstanding trail system in the Tamahi area, and have gotten gov't help in building staging areas - and those areas are impressive. Did BCORMA have any input to those trails and staging areas at all? What has BCORMA done for DSBC to justify our selling trail passes at the bike show? I'm hoping that this is a lack of communication from BCORMA and not a lack of action.

Reading the comments here I'm somewhat (reluctantly) concerned that the main purpose of BCORMA is to provide a well paying job to its executive director - hope I'm wrong about that but from a dual-sport perspective BCORMA doesn't seem to do much for us and I don't know what else to conclude.

John

 

[offworlder]

The only things that resembles "communication" I've seen from BCORMA aside from the website, albeit not directly to the members, is the ED's Twitter posts: https://twitter.com/bcorma
And as per BCORMA's site: "All this takes money and support from riders, industry, and the Government".

So following up on DirtClunker's thoughts, lets formulate a course of action:
1) temporary (possibly permanent) hold on purchasing BCORMA passes, recommending others do the same (and indicating why)
2) reach out to other user groups (http://bcorma.geovisionenvironmental.com/node/6), to understand their perspective, concerns, etc...
3) start a petition requiring a specific degree of communication, and greater accountability/transparency from BCORMA
4) evaluate petition results, send to BCORMA
5) contact govt ?

 

[c337b]

BCORMA does sent out a online news letter to you email if you sign up for it

Here is an example - from Feb 2013

Kamloops January 18th: Backcountry Horseman of BC sponsored "Share the Trails" workshop.
As many of you know, the BC Provincial Government is working on changing laws that pertain to Forestry/Resource Roads and their use. The Natural Resource Road Act (NRRA) is wide ranging, and will effect recreationalists accessing trails and much of our trail networks that are often built on old road-base.
Don Gosnell, Project Manager, has provided a summary paper on the areas that pertain to recreation. Give his Overview of Current Policy Thinking for Recreationlists a read (follow the hyperlink or download below)
BCORMA and ATVBC have been recreation's voice for developing this new legislation for over a year now. We view much of the changes as positive, but would like your feedback as the Government moves into the actual drafting of legislation. Look forward to your comments and ideas in our NRRA forum.
Keeping off-road riders in the loop.
Peter

 

[c337b]

I see BCORMA has a Forum

http://bcorma.geovisionenvironmental.com/forum

They have a how are we doing thread Last post on it was 2yrs 2months ago Maybe time for an update?

 

[DirtClunker]

The only things that resembles "communication" I've seen from BCORMA aside from the website, albeit not directly to the members, is the ED's Twitter posts: https://twitter.com/bcorma
And as per BCORMA's site: "All this takes money and support from riders, industry, and the Government".

So following up on DirtClunker's thoughts, lets formulate a course of action:
1) temporary (possibly permanent) hold on purchasing BCORMA passes, recommending others do the same (and indicating why)
2) reach out to other user groups (http://bcorma.geovisionenvironmental.com/node/6), to understand their perspective, concerns, etc...
3) start a petition requiring a specific degree of communication, and greater accountability/transparency from BCORMA
4) evaluate petition results, send to BCORMA
5) contact govt ?

How about as a start we ask our various clubs? I can ask at the Victoria Motorcycle Club to see how well BCORMA is working for them...

 

[TW_rider]

As far as I have seen in my short experience and keeping up with BCORMMA, they have NEVER been transparent about anything going on. Its been a " give us your money, buy a trail pass, we are looking after you" How?

How about NOT buying Trail Passes...wouldn't that affect their revenue/bottom line?







EDIT: Sorry...I didn't see that others had the same idea.

 

[Farp]

How about as a start we ask our various clubs? I can ask at the Victoria Motorcycle Club to see how well BCORMA is working for them...

I see that as an essential first step if we are going to get BCORMA to change. To my understanding BCORMA is a coalition of off-road user groups so getting their consensus is the first thing that must be done. The way I see the structure as working is the individual user groups get a consensus from their individual members about how they'd like to see BCORMA operate. Each user group then sends a rep to BCORMA where their various opinions are discussed and a course of action is agreed to. This is how the democratic system is supposed to work. If we can't get this to happen and BCORMA continues to operate as it always has then I'd really have to think about wanting to continue in support of BCORMA. But I think we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. BCORMA is an excellent idea if we can get it to function as a truly democratic organization, unfortunately, right now it appears to be directed by one person, or perhaps a small group of people, whose opinions my not be in complete agreement with the majority of us in DSBC.

John